The Hidden Cost of Rapid Scaling No One Warns Leaders About

Growth isn’t a straight line; it’s a staircase with tough climbs and deceptively flat stretches. We sat down with Debra Squyres to unpack how leaders can scale with structure, protect their teams from burnout, and still delight customers at volume. Debra bridges a rare gap: she started in HR and moved into customer success, so she sees how the employee journey mirrors the customer journey—and why ignoring either one quietly erodes retention and revenue.

In this conversation, we cover:

• The unseen cost of rapid scaling most leaders don’t anticipate
• Why fast growth can strain culture, communication, and trust
• Leadership gaps that get exposed during hyper-growth
• When systems, people, and processes stop keeping up
• The pressure leaders feel to perform while managing chaos
• How decision-making changes as organizations scale
• Warning signs that growth is moving faster than alignment
• What sustainable scaling actually looks like in real life
• Questions leaders should ask before chasing the next level

Join us weekly as we dig into the real stories behind work culture transformation.

Not theory. Not fluff. Just honest conversations with leaders and innovators who've been in the trenches.

Transcript

Why Scale Demands Structure

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Scale does require an element of structure and process and predictability. Your investors require it, but your customers also require it. When you have a hundred customers, you can have, like as a company, you can have much more intimate relationships. When you get to a thousand and three thousand and five thousand, you actually have to deliver consistently, predictably, and delightfully without having, without brute force.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

At Elements of Culture, we sit down with experts in leadership and team building to explore the DNA that drives a thriving organization. Hey everyone, and welcome to Elements of Culture. My name's Taryn, and I'm joined with my co-host Julie. And today we are talking with Deborah Squires. Deborah, we're so excited to talk with you. You have just an amazing background that's really been focused for a long period of time in the customer success journey in that space. I know that's just an area of passion for you. Um, but also leadership is something you're so passionate about. So I'm excited for us to just dig in. We're gonna have uh just an organic conversation and see where we go. And um just want to say welcome and thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

Thanks so much for having me. I'm super excited for this conversation.

From HR To Customer Success

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Absolutely. Well, we're glad to have you. As you know, on uh this podcast, we talk about a lot of different things, but really what it boils down to is having healthy culture so teams can be more successful. If I were to kind of summarize it and condense it down to a couple of areas. So, so Deborah, what uh if you think back on your own personal career journey, looking back, like what really grew your passion with the customer journey? Like, was it something that you experienced, you know, when you were young? Was it a mentor? Was it a leader? What kind of started things out for you?

SPEAKER_01 1:49

It's interesting. Um, I didn't have a linear path to the customer journey. I actually started as an HR practitioner in-house in large um enterprise HR departments. And so my passion really started with the employee experience and the employee journey. Um, and at one point I pivoted into the client service and client success side of things, working in HR services and HR tech. So it was just a natural transition. Um, and I discovered really early on that the customer journey and the employee journey are very similar and really require attention to both. And so I have this passion for delivering an exceptional customer experience through an exceptional team member experience. And I've spent my whole career focused on how do you how do you address both? Um, you can certainly focus on one or the other, but the business is not sustainable if you do that. And so, how do you make the customer experience better, but also um make it easy for people to show up at their best, even on hard days uh within the team. And so when you balance that out, it really can be a magical experience.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

Deborah, I want to work where you're doing that because I've only experienced one or the other. Um and uh yeah, so I love this that you're talking about this because I think we always sacrifice one for the other. And we j and I think leadership justifies it. I think I justify it as an employee. So I I think, well, this is the cost of providing amazing uh, you know, customer experience, is that I I possibly may have a heart attack in the middle of this. But um, so talk to me a little bit about how you do balance that what are the things that you've seen over the course of your career that you're like, well, what wait, how can I balance this out? What does that look like? And and where do you start in a company if you if there's a if there's a leader that's looking at that and seeing an unbalance, where do they start?

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Yeah, I think that's a great question. Um, generally, I look at it from the perspective of let's let's do a current state assessment. Let's understand what's working and what's not across the customer experience, but let's let's provide the same attention and energy and focus on the employee experience. Now, people teams often look at this at a high level as they should. But as a functional leader, my job is to understand the inner workings of the team and where those friction points can exist and to ask the questions that help us uncover if we could fix this, what would be possible from a customer experience perspective? Um, and so really I come in with more questions than answers. Yes, I've seen a lot in my career. Um, and there are some things that typically are just um quick wins for either employees or the customer. But if you come in with a curiosity mindset, really seeking to understand why things are happening the way that they are, you know, generally uh processes and policy and programs were put in place for good reason. Um but oftentimes what happens in companies that are growing and changing is what worked at one stage doesn't work at the next. And there's just this ongoing need to evaluate is what we are doing still working? And if not, why not? And how do we fix that? And you can do that through looking at, you know, the metrics, you can do that through looking at the key touch points, what resources you have in place, um, the people involved, um, who you're serving or who's serving the customer. So those are questions that you can ask in both realms, customer experience and employee experience, and gather all that insight and generally look at, okay, what are the biggest friction points? And the reality is if you ask the team, they generally know. The people closest to the problem typically know the answers. They may not know, they may not stop and think about it. And so your job as a leader is to pause, to give them the space to pause, think about it, and share what's working and what's not. And they will help you prioritize what's going to have the biggest impact.

Continuous Assessment Over One-Time Fixes

SPEAKER_00 6:08

What I want to ask is based on your um experience, let's put the customer journey kind of to the side and let's look at the employee side first. Do you feel like, whether it's been through your own experience or just in your network, do you feel that companies and leaders are pausing to assess their employees well? Do you feel like that's changed over the last 10 years? And if so, in what ways?

SPEAKER_01 6:33

I think um, I do think it has changed over the last 10 years. And I think people are doing their best and they're trying really hard. I see more people um dedicate time to this at the beginning of their journey with a company, particularly in leadership. I think if you break down what you're seeing in the workplaces today, even over the last five to six years, so much has changed. Um, and that's not unique to customer success or, you know, uh SaaS companies. That is just the world that we operate in. Um, you see there are five generations in the workplace. The nature and location of work has changed. We're all doing our best to try to figure it out. Um, where I do see uh people leaning in is typically when they're at the beginning of their journey as a leader. They come in and they're quickly trying to assess what's happening and how do we fix it, both from a customer experience and an employee experience perspective. I think what's harder is that once you get into a groove or into a role, you tend to forget that what got you here won't get you to the next stage. Things are shifting in the macroeconomic environment, things are shifting in your own business, you may be pivoting, you may be introducing new products, you may be getting to a critical milestone or threshold organizationally. And you actually have to begin again and ask all those same questions. Yes, you have more insight. You may be a little more dated because you're in-house. Um, you know, once you've been there for a while and you put those programs in place, it's harder to dismantle them, much easier coming in as a new person to be objective. Um, but you do see that from time to time as people go through major milestones. But I do think that more people lean in to these processes at the beginning of their journey as a leader, not so much on an ongoing basis. And it's, I think, a critical miss and an opportunity for us as leaders.

Leaders Reassessing Beyond Day One

SPEAKER_02 8:37

Yeah, no, I agree. I think um every time we've had experience and somebody new coming in, we do see some effective change in the beginning. But then it's, you know, work as usual. Like everything kind of reverts back to the way it was and everything's the same. And so because I think they're unable to manage or even get to the root problem of what it was, there's some temporary uh, I think, solutions that are provided, and then um then we kind of all go back to the way it was. So I have seen that happen. And I don't even think they were bad leaders. I think it was just they it there was not follow-up and hey, is it still working? What's going on? How do how do people feel? So you have a unique experience coming from the HR background, which I think is what makes you super successful at this, because I think that element is where leaders have difficulty. They tend to connect to one yet not the other. And so I think that's the uniqueness of this. But I would love to ask you this. Um, when I think about scaling, okay, um, I see companies, and Tara and I have seen it, the companies are like, okay, our custom our sales are going through the roof, we're scaling, let's go. And, you know, they don't understand what's happening with the employees. And so what happens is then I see, you know, four months in, like everyone's leaving, everyone's looking for a new job, the morale's down, you know, and they're trying to increase morale with the increase of revenue, which is not sufficient. Talk to me a little bit about what a company needs to do when it's as a scaling, because I feel like there's a lot of mistakes being done here. We're hearing it through the great vine and through our own friends and people in that too. So talk to us if there was a company that was about to start start scaling at a large rate right now, what would your advice to them be?

Scaling Realities And Breaking Points

Designing For Predictable Delivery

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Yeah, I think um one, um, having been in these companies that have scaled like overnight, um, what you have to realize is yes, there are these hockey stick growth curves that are nice and smooth. Um, that works in a PowerPoint. In real life, it's like a staircase. And sometimes it's a winding staircase. You work really hard to climb up to that next stair, and then you hit the flat and you start running. And at some point you slam into the next upright and have to climb again. Um, so from a leadership perspective, if you can stretch out those extensions of the flats and reduce the height of those uprights that you have to climb, um, you're going to be positioning your team to have a much better and smoother experience. So there are a few things to think about. One, some people thrive in certain stages of companies. So you have to realize that when you get to a certain stage, people may opt out because they want to go back to an environment where they got to wear more hats or where um things weren't so structured. Scale does require an element of structure and process and predictability. Um, your investors require it, uh, but your customers also require it. When you have a hundred customers, you can have, like as a company, you can have much more intimate relationships. When you get to a thousand and three thousand and five thousand, you actually have to deliver consistently, predictably, and delightfully without having, without brute force. And so you have to be evaluating what's going to break at each stage. Um, you know, I I think back to um when we were going through growth, adding products and starting to forecast, you have bottoms up forecast to, you know, how many customers may upsell on a particular product. And you look at that and you think about like, can we process that many contracts in the course of the month? Yes, you can make the spreadsheet do anything you want to do, just like you can make that hockey stick growth curve look very smooth, but it's never, it's never that smooth. So you have to think in terms of the inputs to each of these processes and what does a human have to touch? Where can you leverage automation or AI? Where can you not? And then really architect changes to the process before you you come to a screeching halt. Um, the same applies to like your customer engagement model and how you handle things like ongoing business reviews. You know, a lot of customers won't give you the time to engage in a quarterly deep dive strategic business review. Um, once you get to a certain stage, you have to step back and understand what is of value to the customer. You should be asking them those questions and then architecting what you deliver based on that feedback. That doesn't mean you do everything that everyone asks you to do, whether it's an employee from a culture perspective or customer from the customer experience perspective, but you need to understand the perspective of the people that you're counting on to grow this business and that includes your customers and your employees. And you really need to do the math around like where certain processes break and when certain tools in your tech stack need to be upgraded to handle enterprise grade or enterprise quality, for example, um, or just enterprise volumes. Um and so if you continuously look from the perspective of what could go well, but also what is the worst possible scenario, like what could go horribly wrong? And then you can you can start to narrow down what do I need to prioritize to ensure we don't come to a screeching halt, but we also don't break the bank in the process because we aren't scaling in the ways that we used to scale previously. We used to just throw money at the problem and throw people at the problem. And that just doesn't work. Yeah. More and more investors are not so interested in just writing a blank check. They actually want you to run a viable, um, sustainable business from the early stages.

SPEAKER_02 14:31

I was one of those people that was thrown at a problem.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

Yes. Yes. That's not fun. It's not fun to be the person thrown at the problem, or as I like to put it, like throwing your body on the grenade. Um you don't want people to have to do that. You want people to be, yes, you want to work hard. And great culture doesn't mean that people are all just sitting around, you know, in a circle around a campfire, you know, singing Kuba Ayah songs. Um, it means they're working hard, but on something that they're proud of and they feel supported in that process so that when they do occasionally blow something up, they know that you've got them, you've got their back. Um, and that you make it harder and harder for them to blow things up so that they have a good experience in the process as well.

Clarity, Accountability, And Transparency

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Yeah, one of the things you're talking about there too, in a sense, is clarity, right? There's clarity in the communication and the plan and the vision that everyone's kind of going towards because that way, if something does explode along the journey, hopefully there's less and less less of those as you are making those changes and fixes along the way and you're reiterating, you know, why you're doing the changes or why you're kind of implementing um new tech or whatever the case might be. But Julie made this point earlier is I think sometimes companies are implementing those changes, but there's no accountability for that follow-up. And so what's happening is then you have people reverting back to the way that it was done previously. And so part of that planning has to have, you know, the clarity of what you're doing, why you're doing what you're doing, but then also the accountability, like, hey, this is why and this is who's responsible. And and when you're not meeting those goals, um, you're having that conversation. And and more and more, and you're probably seeing this too, Deborah and can speak to it, but more and more we're seeing that leaders are more transparent, I think, than they ever have been. And I almost feel like it's necessary and it's almost required because of the direction that we're going. And like you said, investors are no longer throwing a blank check at stuff. They're asking for the transparency. And so I think leaders are having to do the same for the employees and customers' expectations have changed as well. Customers are savvier, they have more knowledge about AI and what they want in terms of deliverables. And so I think transparency and clarity is just kind of required in this new space of business. Would you agree? And what are you kind of seeing with that?

Change Management Beats Slack Blasts

SPEAKER_01 17:03

Absolutely, I agree. Um, I think one of the one of the ways as a leader that you can really lean into transparency is being clear about what you are prioritizing and what you're not prioritizing. Um, people know that you can't do everything that is asked for. But if you actually avoid the sensitive topics, um, and oftentimes as a leader internally, that sensitive topic is we need to hire more people, um, or we need this or we need that, right? Um, you need to actually explain why you're prioritizing what you are prioritizing, what the constraints are that we're dealing with, and then really solicit input on how we solve this problem together with the thinking of everyone in the room. Um, one of my early learnings as a leader, and it was mentorship from someone else, is that you know, the further that you move up in your career, the more you need to be asking the right questions and soliciting the right input from your team. They don't expect you to have all the answers. They expect you to ask the right questions so that we can make the right decisions together, or you have you like you make the tiebreaker call on those tough decisions and take the accountability for that. One of the things that you're mentioning, Taryn, um, just reminds me that often we move so quickly that we don't think about change management. And humans need effective change management. They need time to learn new processes, they need reinforcement. Um, it's why widely accepted that from a marketing and sales perspective, you have to touch a prospect repeatedly with the same message, like seven, nine, twelve times before it actually starts to sink in. Well, we're all humans internally in companies. So one of the things that you see become necessary over time as you're scaling and growing a business and wanting to become more sustainable and have a great culture at the same time is that you have to repeat those messages and reinforce the learnings and support people with navigating the changes that you're asking them to make. So just blasting out a change in policy or process on a Slack channel is not in and of itself actually changing anything. And they solid it though.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

They're reaching, Deborah. I'm I mean, that I mean, it's that's the new thing right now. I mean, 50% of your team aren't even gonna see it, you know.

Communicate In Many Modes

SPEAKER_01 19:30

Yeah, but I did my job, I put it out there. I know, I know, but that's one of the big lessons that um that I think companies have to learn as they're growing up. People cannot consume all of the data points that are coming at them. And um the closer you are to customers or prospects, the more data points you have flying at you from all different directions. Different internal teams want something from you, they want you to do different things. Customers across, you know, hundreds or thousands of customers are coming at you. Um, you know, your manager is coming at you. You have to actually make it easy for people to show up and do what you need them to do and deliver for your customers. And so part of our job as leaders is to reduce that noise, to actually eliminate a lot of the distraction and um curate the information that people need to consume in ways that they can consume it. And and you know, the hard part of that is that different humans have different needs for that. So as a leader, you can't just do what's easy for you. If posting it on a Slack channel lets you tick the box, good for you if you're happy for that moment in ticking the box. But I guarantee you that is not a change. That is not going to change behavior, right? 90% of the team won't see it, won't like internalize it. You actually have to make it easy. And it's not that people are lazy or that they're not smart, it's that they've got so much going on, not only in the workplace, but in life in general, that you have to make it easy for them to consume these updates and to make the changes that you're asking them to make to support what needs to happen in the business or for customers.

SPEAKER_02 21:08

Yeah, Deborah, I think one of the things um that I learned with change management is the way you get people on board vary by department. And so, like when I'm delivering a message to the sales team versus the finance team and or the call center, the the why behind a change is different in what we're explaining. Because I think and because I think, you know, as facilitators and and in the learning and development, we know adults learn differently and they obtain information differently, but mostly people want to know how does this relate to my job? Right? Like how is this relatable? So I don't need to tell the finance department uh uh part of that change that is not relatable to them as much as was this is where it is relatable to you. And so I think communication. And Tara and I, we discuss communication all the time. And people take it for granted because they think a massive email that has a couple of paragraphs is going to explain to all your employees what's happening and why the changes are happening. And the answer is like that doesn't work. Um like me, you're just gonna open it and probably not read it and let try to hear it to hum on the other side. Hey, what was that email about? Because I want someone to debrief it for me. Um and then not realizing and not connecting in my brain that, hey, how does this relate to me? What does this look like for me on a day-to-day? Yeah. Talk to me a little bit about communications because I know you're a big um advocate of mentoring and developing people, but the communication aspect of it, it seems like corporate America, we are struggling with communication. We're still struggling with getting employees on board. We are still struggling with communicating effectively. We're still being misunderstood. I feel like we're connected on Slack and this my Teams and email, and there's everything. There's all the platforms, yet we're still disconnected.

Generations, Preferences, And Trust

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Yeah, I think we often think that uh access to more tools is the same as actually effectively communicating. And the reality is change management is nothing more than repeated and variety, like a variety of types of communication. And you know what, it's a pain in the butt as a leader to have to think that through. But you need both the long email with all the paragraphs because that will speak to a couple of people. And you also need the quick hit, like, this is what you need to know, FAQ or quick reference guide or slap reminder, because that will reach other people. But then there are also people who just won't read and who need a team meeting or a discussion, and they need to process it and really think it through and ask their questions because they can't internalize it until they do that. So you have to consistently look at what are all of the communication needs and mechanisms that I have at my disposal and how do I leverage those in order to get through to the team. One of the keys, though, to change management is actually leveraging the team who you're asking to change. So most changes should not happen in some, you know, on high in some tower somewhere with leaders sitting around thinking, what is the right way to do this? It should be in a collaborative setting with team members who are also impacted, helping to design that change. And when you do it that way, they become part of the communication mechanism. Um, and we're seeing more and more, you know, the more you leverage your team and designing the changes, they can be part of rolling that out. Um, they are part of reinforcing it and really being change advocates in the workplace. Um, and we see that from a customer success perspective, we build our implementation and launch programs with that key concept in mind that humans need to be communicated with and engaged with in ways that resonate for them. And that varies by individual. And it can vary generationally, uh, by processing style. Um, we've got you know different needs for different people. Um, we're seeing more use of video and short form video than email now. Um, so you have to be much more flexible as a leader who's trying to affect change. Um, and sometimes what that means is you have to be willing to have the one-on-one conversations with people who are being impacted by the change because that's what they need. And it is hard, but that's why you're in a leadership role. If that's not what you're signing up for, you know, it's not, it's not all um, it's not all fun and games in leadership. It's a lot of hard work and a lot of negotiation with a bunch of different people as you're trying to affect change.

Involve People To Drive Change

SPEAKER_00 25:47

So yeah, you mentioned something earlier, Deborah, that I feel like as we're talking about change management, you talked about like the marketing side of things as we market to customers. And maybe this just hits me because I have marketing and advertising background specifically, but when you talk about reaching folks seven times, nine times, you know, eleven times, in order for them to kind of get your message and your brand, we don't, we as companies, we don't do that internally with our employees, right? And that's what you're talking about is the email. It's the one-on-one, it's it's reiterating everything. And I think those that are in like a some type of sales organization or your marketing, like it makes sense. We always talk about the customer side of things, but as a leader, kind of adopting that same mentality in order to implement change within an organization, you've got to market it. Um, you've got to sell the why. And like you said, developing the team, those that are um, you know, kind of championing, championing the change because they're behind the vision. That's so important. Because I think if you don't have that, again, going back to what we said earlier, people are gonna revert back to the old patterns and you don't have any changes actually happening, or it's just if you don't have that quick kind of teen buy-in, that change process just drags out much longer than it really needs to.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

Absolutely. If you put as much care into your employee experience as you do into your prospect or customer experience, you will be well served by that process. Is it a lot of effort? Absolutely, up front. But if you want, if you want to achieve 90% plus gross revenue retention, 120% plus net revenue retention, um, the way to do that is actually to empower and mobilize your team. And it's effort, uh, but it's totally worth it when you look at what's possible at the intersection of customer and employee experience.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

Yeah, you you talked about um the different generations. Uh, Julie and I have had so many conversations about different generations at work and even in saying communication styles and with facilitation with learning and development, you know, that that obviously impacts, you know, generation by generation. When we think about Gen Z and then the younger generation, Gen Alpha coming up behind them, it's like, you know, the amount of video content that we consume. And so our teaching style, our content, the way that we reach those audiences has to change. Um, how do you navigate that as a leader? Um, yes, you put in the work, but realistically, even for you and your experience, Deborah, and those that are kind of in your network, how do you navigate that? Because the workforce right now is made up of lots of different generations and preferences and communication styles. So how do you navigate that and still be effective?

Strengths, Engagement, And Impact

Tech, AI, And Human Judgment

SPEAKER_01 28:40

Yeah. Um it that's a great call out. We do have five full generations in the workplace now. And I think Gen Z is up to 28% of the workplace. Um, and I'm proud Gen X, or I was I was Gen X when like the baby boomers were writing books on things like how to manage Generation X, and we were the problem children, and you know. Um, so I think there are a couple of things that you have to keep in mind. One, we're all still humans, and yes, we may be part of a generation, but that does not mean that I identify with every trait of a particular generation. We are intersectional human beings, and so um you have to think in terms of what are the variety of ways that people need to hear and experience changes or updates. And one of the best ways that you can do that is to know your team. And, you know, I have a practice anytime we bring someone new on the team, I want to understand how do you want feedback? How do you want to hear about changes? Do you want to participate in designing things? What are the types of projects you get excited about? And if you're having those ongoing dialogues with your team, you may not hit everything, but you have an open enough environment that people are comfortable telling you when you miss the mark and what they need from you. And it doesn't become this tense situation. It's merely a conversation in good, healthy environments because you've opened the door to look, I'm trying to, I'm trying to address everyone's needs here. Tell me what you need, what do you prefer? Um, and people recognize that you're coming at it from the perspective of actually trying to do this in partnership with them, not trying to do something to them. And they trust your approach or they they have trust that you had good intentions to begin with and are willing to step up and say, hey, that didn't work for me, or I think there's a group of us that didn't get it, and you know, can we go back to this? But you have to, you have to incorporate a variety of approaches in your recurring cadence of meetings and communications. So we do we do everything from short form video updates, like we'll send a loom out to show people things in like, you know, step by step. We'll also provide an FAQ or process document that has it all written out. Um, we have confluence pages where they can just go and and look at it, you know, when they're ready to. We have longer, you know, in person uh or not in person, but instructor-led trainings where people can ask questions. And what we see is we get a portion of the group in each of those that that is like benefiting from that experience. When you do this alongside your team members, instead of like as a small group of leaders pushing it out, it's more sustainable. And they will help you remember the things that you don't naturally um do, you know, or or doesn't come natural for you. Like I am I'm a narrative person, I'm a writer, I I'm not great with slides. I can, you know, I can sit and talk with people, but there are aspects of what comes natural for me that is not what others need. And so other people on the team feel that. As a leader, you have to know like who compliments you on the team so that you can meet the full needs of the team that you're responsible for. You don't have to be the end-all be-all, but you do need to be open-minded and realize that everybody's not going to conform to what works for you. Um, that's a given uh in the workplace today.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

Yeah, Deborah, I think that's uh a mindset that's fairly new because in the you know, I feel like when I was younger, like you had to be everything. And if you were weak in the area, they challenge you to become stronger in that area. I remember thinking, I don't want to be stronger in this area. I'd rather use Chris over here who's sitting next to me, who's great at it. Like, why do I have to be better at it when I can surround myself with people that are good at what they do? Yeah. And that shift was met some people loved it, some people hated it. And and I think that's hard to teach, but it's like we're missing out on I think opportunities and talents that people have where they thrive. Yeah, and so they thrive in those areas. And so it's almost like you're losing this opportunity to let them thrive in this thing that they're so good at. And I would hate doing it. So I don't want to spend an hour doing it. Like, let Chris do it. Chris is great at it. Like I just want to be able to let Chris do what he likes to do and be able to focus on that. So that's a that's a new mindset because before you had to be everything, like to be a lawyer, you had to be perfect at everything, and that mindset just changed. And I think the generations coming into the workforce is very helpful to force change for some of us. You know, and like I tell Taryn all the time, I remember being corporate American, all I heard is, well, we've always done it this way.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

We still hear that. Yeah. You probably familiar.

Mentorship, Mindset, And Potential

SPEAKER_02 33:45

Why do you change it? I'm confused. It's like, is that like some type of law? Like we've always done it this way. I'm so confused. And so, and at that time it was the anti-millennial, like, I'll always try to change everything. But like, I how do you get people? So when we talk about change management, and I, you know, I was younger then, but how do you get people on board with the vision for change?

SPEAKER_01 34:07

Yeah. Um, so you involve them in it, that's the reality. You give them the facts that they need to have. Um, as an example, you know, if you have no budget to hire, but you have to account for 20% more business, you get people in a room, either in real life or virtually, and you map out what needs to change because it's gonna be us solving this problem. What needs to change? What are we doing that is not adding value? What are we doing the hard way? What are we doing that could be improved with automation or with a new tool or with an adjustment to how we organize the team? There have been many times where you know you just have these constraints placed on you. And the more you share that these are the constraints that we have and this is the outcome that we need to get to, and you free the minds up of the people that you have either in the real room or in the virtual room to creatively solve that problem, you find that you get to much better solutions than if you sit and ponder that on your own or with a small group of leaders in a room by yourself. The people who can answer the question as to what do we need to prioritize or what can we improve and how do we need to do it are the people closest to the process or closest to the experience. And if you don't give them the benefit of trust in sharing what those constraints are and collaborate them, collaborate with them in the process, then you're missing out on um tremendous potential impact and you have a much higher likelihood of failure. Julie, you mentioned something that um struck a chord for me and something that about 15 years ago I became very familiar with is I don't know if you're familiar with the Gallup Strength Finders assessment. Yeah. It's something that I use with everyone that I work with because it is so important to me to understand what people's natural strengths are. The reality is as you grow a team, you know that you're not going to, ideally, you're not going to have a cookie cutter. Everybody is not going to have the same experience and the same strengths. So understanding the collective strengths of the team and how different individuals could work together to solve problems becomes a really powerful asset to you as a leader. And it can actually help inform like what is the unique individual or experience or strength that we need to bring to the team that we're currently missing as you continue to add to the team. And I have found that is a very powerful tool. But importantly, um, the data on employee engagement and how you access things like discretionary effort indicate that if you're using people's strengths, like their natural strengths on a daily basis in the work, they are something like 60 or 70% more likely to be actively engaged and bring discretionary effort. Meaning they're like at the grocery store not working, but also thinking about like, how can we solve this problem and really creatively, actively engaged in helping you succeed, not just working a job. Um, and so that's just something as a leader, that's a tool that I have found really powerful. Um, and I think people are more open to it today than they used to be. And I I um your example of we've always done it this way uh really resonates for me. The first 10 years of my career were spent in really large companies, like 40 and 80,000 employees worldwide. Um, and it was crazy to me how those companies were successful, and they were uh different time though. This was the the 90s, um, but so ingrained, and this is how we've always done it, we will not consider changing. Um it was very it was a good learning for the first 10 years of my career. I definitely don't want to go back to that kind of corporate environment. That is not fun for me.

Closing Reflections And Thanks

SPEAKER_02 37:56

I remember I actually remember trying to convince leadership that the future was gonna be we're gonna be doing everything on apps. So we needed to get an app that people could use for convenience and we could like lower the call volume. I remember trying to convince, and they're like, Yeah, I don't think that's gonna happen. And I was like, No, you think this is like a trend? Like I do everything on an app, you know? Like I remember trying to convince a group of people and they're like, no, I don't think that's ever gonna happen. And of course, this is like 20 years ago. But like I remember trying to convince them that and they're like, No, that's probably not gonna happen. That's not even realistic to think about. And I was like, Oh, okay, well, what do I know?

SPEAKER_01 38:39

Like And look at us now.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

Most of the time I spent like I actually read something on Instagram the other day. It says, you know, we we were younger, you would pay for ringtones, and now like my phone's been on silent for like 15 years straight. Like I don't know what to ring. But we use it even more. We just don't use it for calls. So somebody's gonna watch this and go, you used to pay for ringtons. Waiting three years. Oh my gosh. Printer. But yeah, just to pay for ring tongue. But yeah, so I think change management is difficult for companies. They're still navigating that. I think that's still a sensitive area for sure.

SPEAKER_00 39:26

Yeah, Deborah, you talked about the personality um assessment, the strengths finder through Gallup. You know, there's lots of tools that are out there like that. And I think some companies, they do a good job using those tools, and then some just it's not part of their culture. And I think they're really missing out because, like you said, if you can understand your team members a bit better, um, and then whether it's tailoring their role or just allowing them to feel seen and and heard a bit more in who they are as an individual does make an impact into how they show up for their job. Or like you said, even in the grocery store. Um, I want to touch on this. Um, we'll wrap up here in just a minute. But one thing I want to ask you because you know, you are a people person. Um, you are championing the employees in the organization, but also the customer side. Um, but yet you don't steer away from technology, you don't steer away from AI or or ways to bring efficiencies to the organization or to the job. So, you know, when we talk about AI, there's not a human element. There's some ways that it can help, you know, create efficiencies, but it's not the innovation or the the emotional side of things that that we as as people bring to that. So what are you seeing? Like, what's on the horizon for companies, um, folks like yourself that are in roles that's really focused on people? How do you see the technology and tools? How do you see that changing or making an impact to folks like yourself that are leading people and that are close to the people? What are what's on the horizon, do you think?

SPEAKER_01 41:12

Yeah. Um, I think that's a great question. Um, I I I candidly worry for us over the next few years as we determine how best to leverage AI in the workplace, in the customer experience in particular, but but in the workplace, because what we see right now, um, you know, we're in the early stages here, and so everybody's trying everything, and it is becoming quite a distraction. And in some circumstances, you've got, you know, I've seen a CSM is is talking with ChatGPT and and you know, preparing for the QBR, and then the customer is actually talking with Chat GPT or Cloud or their own, you know, AI platform of choice, and they're preparing for the QBR. And the humans aren't actually like interceding and engaging there. Um, and so there's there's a bit of like, how do we how do we help this fit in in ways that make the most sense, that bring out the best in the people involved? Um I know that there is, you know, I'm excited about the potential to um streamline some of the work that is the heavy lift. Um, but I think it's gonna take a few years of really determining how do we fit it into the processes, what processes need to change, but also what tech is appropriate to support the right experiences. Um and right now I think people are just like throwing everything at the wall to see what will stick. And um I was reading a research. Sorry, I was reading a report last week where like the biggest impact that we've seen in customer experience overall is in um uh support response times. We're not seeing significant impact in things like um the quality of the insights that we deliver to customers yet because we haven't we haven't um landed on the right combination of embedded tools and what we're feeding into um the technology and how we're then um relaying that back to customers. We're in very much an experimental phase. Um and it feels that way.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

Yeah, I would agree with that because it's all come so quickly and everyone's just like, oh, let's try this, let's try that. And I and I do think that that's okay too. I I do think that trying things can be healthy to see what works and what doesn't. And we've talked with some leaders that are in that that kind of startup place where they want to invest and see what works well for the company. But at the same time, I do agree there does have to be a healthy balance so it's not distraction and. Taking you away from, you know, your your tasks that that do need to be focused on. Um and I agree, I think the the human element, like that's never gonna go away, you know, and I think it's not going to. Um, but I think that there we do need to be more cautious of of how we um manage through that. So, so Deborah, as we wrap up today and and wrap up our conversation, you know, you again, you're a people person. You you love developing people. You told us that before we started our podcast today. Is you're just so passionate about developing others and developing leaders. What has taught you along your journey? Like, has it been a certain experience? Has it been a been like a nugget of wisdom of some kind that's really helped you see people and notice people that's kind of led you throughout your experience?

SPEAKER_01 44:59

I think um I had mentors early on in my career who encouraged me to try things that uh were new, that experience can be overrated, um, and that you shouldn't stop yourself because you don't have a hundred percent of whatever you know you think it takes to accomplish something. So set your sights on the ambition and you can figure out the roadmap and how to get there, you know, along the way. Um I think starting out in an HR career actually gave me this passion for helping people. Um, or maybe my passion for helping people is what started me in my HR career. I come from a family of public servants. And so this was my way of helping like the world be a better place and to make work better. Um I just get tremendous joy from helping people realize that the constraints that they place on themselves are just that. They're they're their own uh perspectives on what is possible. And um I think the further that you get in your career, the more you realize that um you don't have the constraints, and people don't have the constraints that they think that they have. What they need is a bit of encouragement. Not everybody has somebody in their life who who actually like steps in and says, wow, you're really great at this. You should consider X, Y, or Z. Um, or you should really lean in here. I see this, I see this in you. You have this potential. And it's part like recognizing people's innate talents and capabilities, and it's part being a cheerleader. Um, the world is a hard place, it tears people down, it breaks them down. Um, so as leaders, there's nothing more important that we can do when you step into a leadership role than to help people realize their full potential. And sometimes that's helping them realize what's even possible for themselves.

SPEAKER_00 47:03

Yeah, that's so good. And it makes me think of um, you know, how changing your mindset, it really has to do with changing your mindset and renewing the way that you think. And there's actually a Bible verse that talks about renewing your mind. And I think that if we can renew our mind, if we change our mindset, if we're surrounding ourselves with healthy leaders like yourself and those that can recognize those strengths that we have or say, Hey, you know what, you actually can change here or you can do better here. Like I know what you're qualified for. Those kind of environments, that's where people can really thrive and develop. And um there, we are the world is a tough place. And I think that if we can change our mindset, if we can be more balanced in our approach, that yes, it'll bring us joy, we'll have a greater impact in the environments and the companies that we're working for in our communities. But Deborah, thank you so much for um just sharing your own passions, your own um joy of of serving people within the organizations that you've worked in, sharing your experience. It's been such a pleasure to chat with you today.

SPEAKER_01 48:18

Thank you so much for having me. It's been a wonderful conversation.

SPEAKER_02 48:23

Thank you, Deborah.