EVERYONE Is NOT Your Customer

If churn is quietly erasing your hard-won growth, this conversation will feel like a spotlight on what to fix first. We sit down with Alan Gonsenhauser, 11-time CMO and founder of Demand Revenue, to unpack how disciplined focus on the ideal customer profile turns scattered tactics into a coherent growth engine. 

We explore how picking the right customers, aligning go-to-market teams, and investing in brand create durable growth instead of churn-driven chaos. Alan shares a practical path from problem market fit to platform market fit and shows how to win trust with CFOs while using AI wisely.

Some Key Highlights:
• ideal customer profile as get, keep, grow lens
• alignment across marketing, sales, product, customer success
• problem to product to platform market fit stages
• fewer, bigger, integrated campaigns over tactic treadmill
• brand building as future pipeline and pricing power
• speaking CFO: NPV, IRR, LTV to CAC, MOIC
• smart cuts versus budget amputations in downturns
• use AI for convergence, not strategy; fix process first
• saying no as strategy and burnout prevention
• career advice: cross-functional experience and learning from failure

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Not theory. Not fluff. Just honest conversations with leaders and innovators who've been in the trenches.

Transcript

Welcome And Alan’s Background

Speaker 0:00

I see a lot of companies, they just, you know, we have to make our plan, we have to make our budget. So we'll acquire anything with a pulse and a business card. You know, and and then you have churn issues. And when you have churn issues, it's like, oops, you know, your churn is killing your new growth. So stop doing that.

Speaker 2 0:19

At Elements of Culture, we sit down with experts in leadership and team building to explore the DNA that drives a thriving organization. Hello, everyone. Welcome to Elements of Culture. My name is Tieran, and I'm joined with my co-host Julie today. And we are talking with Alan Gunsenhauser. I hope I got that last name correct. It's not as difficult as mine, Alan. We're so glad to be chatting with you today. Alan is the founder and CEO of Demand Revenue. Alan, welcome to Elements of Culture. Tell us a bit about your background and why you love to coach and mentor in this in this season.

Career Pivot To Solopreneurship

Speaker 0:56

So uh thank you for inviting me. I'm I'm thrilled to be here and nice to meet you both. Um, so my background, I've been a chief marketing officer 11 times. I I started in finance. Um, my master's is in finance. So I always get along really well with CFOs as a marketing person. And I've been a PL general manager a few times. Then I took a side thing where I was uh a CMO coach and mentor at an organization that was called Serious Decisions, which is a go-to-market advisory firm for the marketing sales, product, and customer success functions. Uh spent six years there. The last two we were acquired by Forrester, Forrester Research. Um, stayed on two years, and then I left and started my own business. Demand Revenue is the name of my company. It's at demandrevenue.com. And so what I do, I do a few things. So I continue to mentor and coach chief marketing officers and chief customer officers. Um I've come on four times as an interim or fractional chief marketing officer. And I also help CMOs and CCOs with projects, things like um repositioning, rebranding, um, go-to-market transformations, getting marketing and sales and other functions on the same page. So that's often an issue that companies have. Um and um projects for CMOs and CCOs. So that's kind of what I do. I'm in the Boston area, but my remit is North America and Europe.

Speaker 2 2:28

Okay. Love that. You you mentioned one thing that just kind of stood out to me, Alan, amongst the extensive background. I love that you're doing the consulting side of it now because you can bring some of those experiences to the conversation. But you mentioned you have a financial background. And so going in and being able to have those conversations uh effectively with a CFO. I think sometimes, because here's what's happened that I've seen sometimes the marketing person and the CFO, they don't always see eye to eye on things. They kind of pop heads a bit. And the marketing people, they've always got these crazy ideas, right? Um the CFO is trying to rein everybody in. Well, we're excited to have a conversation with you. What started what started you out down this career path?

Speaker 3:12

Of being a solopreneur, you mean?

Speaker 2 3:14

Yeah.

Why Alignment Outperforms Tactics

Speaker 3:15

Well, um, I as I said, we were acquired by another company by Forrester, and you know, they wanted analysts basically to generate content all the time. And I'm far more entrepreneurial than that. I love growing businesses, and I was very segment at the time, very healthcare focused. And, you know, I I generated some content and, you know, did some writing, but doing it all the time for me would be like watching paint dry. So um, so I I left and and you know, first time I've been a solopreneur, and it's almost five years now. So I love what I do. Um and I do a combination of the things I just mentioned. And, you know, I learned that you know, you can you can make even more money than full-time and and really enjoy what you do and have a lot of flexibility. So I'm not going back to full-time work. I I I love uh coaching and mentoring CMOs and and you know, coming on periodically as an interim CMO when there's a gap in leadership. Uh most of my work is with private equity portfolio companies in the SaaS software, enterprise software and health tech and healthcare space.

Speaker 1 4:23

Yeah, I love that. Um I don't think anybody who leaves and goes solo ever wants to go back.

Speaker 4:30

So I just going back.

Speaker 1 4:32

Yeah, I don't think anybody does. Um, Alan, before the call, we were kind of chit-chatting about um how you help companies with the customer experience and talking about how the way we approach go-to-market has changed in the last 10 to 15 years. And I don't know if um everybody's on board with the new uh techniques and styles that are happening and understanding the audio like their audience and their customer base. But um, I have uh been in rooms where great go-to-market strategies have been presented. And I the first thing I think is great strategy wrong customers. Right. Uh talk to me a little bit about how the go-to-market has changed, how our market has changed in general, or what's led to those changes, and what do you what do you what do you predict is happening? And where are companies dropping the ball?

Ideal Customer Profile: Get, Keep, Grow

Speaker 5:22

Yeah, so um I've worked with hundreds of companies on that. And you know, um go-to-market alignment is a huge economic factor of company success. Um, in fact, one of the people that started series decisions did a study of 400 B2B companies and found that companies that had really good sales marketing product customer success alignment grow 19% faster and are 15% more profitable. So there's a huge economic value of alignment. And, you know, it's the biggest factor that's holding growth back. And to your point about who you target, the most important thing to start off with is getting clarity and governance around your ideal customer profile. Because you want to work with companies that are going to be easier to do three things. And I I'm of a very simple mind. So I, you know, you want you want to get companies that are easier to acquire, so you have better win-loss ratios, easier to retain, so you have better gross revenue retention, and easier to grow, so you have better net revenue retention. So um get, keep, grow. Yeah, you know, and you need to be really specific about, you know, which um types of prospects and customers you're going to be able to keep. And that is more than anything else is correlated with your future financial performance. I see a lot of companies, they just, you know, we have to make our plan, we have to make our budget, so we'll acquire anything with a pulse and a business card, you know, and and then you have churn issues. And when you have churn issues, it's like, oops, you know, your churn is killing your new growth. So stop doing that. You know, understand where you can create a remarkable customer experience and be a real where your products are gonna be a really good fit for the jobs that people are trying to get done, what their pain points are, and start there. So I see a lot of companies that don't have that go-to-market alignment and it's common sense. You know, if you do a good job there, everything else is gonna follow from it. So that's the first thing I think to do. And I see a lot of companies that have that issue.

Speaker 2 7:49

Yeah, I I would agree. And I think um in a past season, I worked with um some small local businesses, and I think the the thing that I always would hear is, well, everyone's our customer.

Speaker 8:04

And no one's your customer. Yeah.

Speaker 2 8:06

Yeah, everyone's your customer. That means no one's your customer. Exactly.

Speaker 8:08

And I think anything, so it's everybody trying to boil the ocean. Yeah.

Problem, Product, Platform Market Fit

Speaker 2 8:14

I know, but then you get out there with no strategy. And like you said, you're spending so much time and that churn is so high because you don't have the right customer. And I think businesses really do have to slow down instead of just trying to scale so quickly. And we actually had a recent conversation with someone and and she said, you've got to slow down to go fast. And I think you have to, though, because if you're not, you if you're not taking the time to strategize like who your target audience is and what that messaging is, you can't just acquire, acquire because they will churn. And I think that I agree. I think that's where companies are making the mistake. Um, so Alan, you know, you're you're not new to this. What's your like in in your assessment when you are working with companies, um, you're coaching them, or whether you come on as a fractional CMO, like what are the first two things that you um, and you don't have to give away your secret, obviously, but what unless you want to, but what are some like key things that you're looking for for a company that does have like a healthy go-to-market strategy where their churn rate is low? Like what are the things that they're doing right from straight out the gate if it's a startup or you know, kind of a younger business?

Speaker 9:29

Yeah. So I look to see if there's churn, first of all, but depending on if it's a younger business, really there's three stages and pivot points that all companies go through. The first one is problem market fit. When you're a startup, can you appeal to companies that have a specific problem that they're willing to pay you for? So, and at that point, you know, you're probably focusing a lot on demand and trying to get anybody because you don't know yet and you're trying to figure out what your ICP is. So that's stage one. And if you're successful there and you have some customers and some use cases, then it goes from problem market fit to product market fit, where you have certain products that you know deliver revenue to your company. And that's where you have to begin thinking about scaling and have repeatable processes, which you didn't have in the first phase. And then if you're successful with um product market fit, if you're really successful there, you can move to platform market fit, which has even more value. And the questions you ask at each of these phases are different. Going from problem to product to platform market fit. But all companies go through those stages, some more successful than others. Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 10:58

It does. Yeah. Thanks for bringing clarity to that. Uh go ahead, Julie.

Speaker 1 11:02

Oh, yeah. No, I was just thinking like um one of the things that we always hear too is um during scaling, there's great ideas for scaling um being brought to the table, but scaling is not working, it's inefficient, it's burning people out. Talk to me a little bit about some of the companies you've seen and what are some of the mistakes they're making during scaling.

Escaping The Tactic Treadmill

Speaker 11:24

Yeah, uh and you know, it a lot of it comes back to ideal customer profile and understanding because if you have governance and everybody is um aligned on strategy, and part of strategy is saying is what you say no to, you know, and it just makes everything so much simpler. So that's why I'm a big big believer in ICP and I've helped companies through that. But you know, once you have that, it's kind of like picking the frequency before you turn up the volume. Then, you know, when you scale, you look at use cases and you look at, you know, not transmitting um product selfies for each of your products, but understanding what the real pain points are of customers and what they care about and the jobs they're trying to get done. And I see a lot of companies at that point going from kind of a product orientation to a needs-based orientation where you start with customer needs and then you bring in the products that are relevant to those needs or the jobs they're trying to get done. So that's where you begin to scale and you begin to have campaigns, fewer, bigger campaigns that integrate functions that a lot of companies kind of have tactics all over the place and the reactive. And I call that the tactic treadmill when you know you're just kind of trying to do everything. But in in order to scale, um, you want to organize the programs and tactics that you're doing into different areas of a campaign. So you've got um you've got programs that drive brand reputation early on, which are going to seed demand. Then you've got your demand programs to get both new business logos and to upsell and cross-sell your current customers. And that's the second area. And then the third area is customer engagement, where you build advocates and drive things like net promoter score and customer satisfaction, make sure that customers are actually using your products so they're not going to churn. And then the fourth is sales and customer success productivity, which are programs to help your sales force be more effective and productive. And if you combine them like that and you have fewer, bigger programs that are market-based and pain point based, that will help you scale your business much better than if you have all these misaligned tactics that you're, you know, being reactive about. So it helps you go from being um reactive to proactive. Um a lot of the CMOs I mentor sometimes are very good at tactical execution, but they don't sit back and think about strategy enough and say, hey, you know, why are we doing this? And what should we do more of? What should we do less of? And you know, what what are the uh three things that are actually moving the bar on business results? So yeah.

Speaker 2 14:42

That's so good, Alan. I think sometimes like you said they don't take a seat and just kind of identify like where things are going wrong. And sometimes I think in sales cultures, you're going too fast, you don't have time to.

Speaker 14:54

Um I've got a plan to meet. I know I've been in sales, I understand. Yeah.

Brand Versus Demand With CFOs

Speaker 2 14:58

Yeah, yeah. You don't make time for it. You don't make time for it. And so therefore you are reactive, right? Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So when you are consulting with companies and based on your own, you know, your personal experience, where are companies like, where are they bottlenecking? You know, with with sales and and within marketing. I mean, we you talk about a lot of key areas, but like where do companies, where do you see people then bottleneck and that really struggle to make a quick impact for revenue? Because I think sometimes you when Julie mentioned scaling, you try to scale too quickly and you don't have that that clear strategy lined out, that things just kind of bottleneck and then you become reactive to all the things that are going on. Where are the areas that you're seeing companies bottleneck where they really need to kind of put a focus on?

Speaker 15:54

Well, some of the areas we've been talking about, you know, not saying no to things. Yeah. You know, worried so much about making the next quarter's plan that they don't, you know, sit back and say, hey, what may what what are customers we can actually keep, you know, and grow? And looking at cohorts of customers, you know, once you get from, you know, um, problem to product to platform, you know, looking at cohorts where you're going to be successful and learning, you know, a big part of strategy is what are you going to say no to? And it's hard saying no when you have a quarter to make. And and also I see companies over-rotating on demand and not investing enough in brand. And that's where I enjoy having conversations with CFOs. Because oftentimes CFOs can't see where you invest, need to invest in brand because, oh, we don't see the immediate return. But, you know, the conversation I have is look, yeah, we're trying to make the current quarter. Do you want to have pipeline a year from now? Do you want to have pipeline two years from now? Do you want to have pricing power? Do you want to be at bats? If the C-suite doesn't know who you are, you won't even be part of the conversation. And you won't even have a chance. If you want at bats, if you want future pipeline, if you want pricing power, and oh, by the way, brand equity is an intangible asset on the balance sheet, Mr. or Ms. CFO. I mean, you know that, right? So I enjoy having those conversations. And oftentimes they say, well, I've never heard a marketing person talk like that.

Speaker 2 17:34

Yeah, it's it's it's true though, because the CFO, they're looking at the bottom line. They're like, where's the ROI? Like, we're investing this much and you know, this branding or whatever type of campaign. And they want to see how it ties back. And so I can certainly see the value that you would bring to that conversation to help help them kind of draw the line for that investment. Because I do, I totally agree with you. I think companies are not having enough conversation on the branding and what that what that branding and that investment on the marketing side and how that ties to the revenue for next year and the customers that are coming in next year.

Speaker 18:12

Talk about accelerating results. If you have a baseline of a strong brand, that makes demand and everything that comes after so much easier. You'll be in more deals, you'll have better win-loss ratios, you'll have better pricing power, you know. So it impacts so many things.

Cutting Budgets Without Cutting Future

Speaker 1 18:31

But Alan, convincing a CFO, a CFO brain works differently than a marketing brain. And so when you talk, when I think about branding equity, it to me that's like duh. Like to me, that's common sense because I think marketing-wise, that makes sense. When we're trying to convince a CFO about branding equity, talk to can you elaborate a little bit about how how you're explaining that to him, even if it's pipeline? But I think a CFO is thinking, cha-ching, cha-ching, cha-ching, what is this costing me now? And when will I see the uh return on investment on this, right? Like that that's what they're really looking for. And how do you convince a CFO, like, hey, now is the time for this? And what does, you know, getting equity in your branding look like? Like, what does that really look like on the front end?

Speaker 19:17

So one way I have that conversation is all CFOs know what net present value is and internal rate of return, which are capital budgeting metrics. This is very similar to that. You know, you may not have the return this year right away, but the CFO's responsibility is not only maximizing this year's return, you're gonna have next year and the year after that. So you need to look at long term return in addition to short term return. And that's what like net present value or IRR does, you know, that CFOs are very familiar with. And um and in private equity environments the most important metric is multiples on invested capital. So that's why things like ICP picking the right customers, you're not only going to acquire this year, but you're going to be able to keep them what their lifetime value is, and you're going to be able to grow them. And looking at metrics like LTV or lifetime value to customer acquisition cost, not just looking at the denominator, customer acquisition cost is really critical. So I don't think there's no CEO I've ever spoken with that doesn't care about long-term returns because that impacts your valuation and everything else, your multiples.

Speaker 1 20:47

You have to speak their language.

Speaker 20:48

Yeah, that really helps. And I I I coach a lot of CMOs to speak CFO. Yes, how to speak CFO with Alan.

Speaker 2 20:59

That could be its own show, you know, Alan.

Speaker 21:02

It's well, I I was actually on the Grow CFO podcast talking about the alignment between the CMO and CFO. And it's, you know, and it's it's encouraging functional leaders, whether it's a CMO or even a CSO, not to be just the head of whatever function they're responsible for, but to be a business leader and think more holistically and aligned on what you need all the functions to do. So if you're a CMO, you shouldn't just be thinking about marketing, you should be thinking as a business leader. And that's the conversation I have with a lot of CMOs when I go to them.

Using AI Wisely, Not For Strategy

Speaker 2 21:42

Yeah, that's so good. I I think that approach is so healthy because otherwise, when you have leaders of departments staying in that kind of siloed place, you're not as effective, right? As a team. And and there are even some companies where they're doing more kind of cross-training. And so you're able to speak more of the same language. Um you're building that rapport with other team members within the organization. But I do think, you know, every company looks different as far as, you know, where there's room to be able to do that, especially within smaller organizations or larger.

Speaker 22:16

Yes.

Speaker 2 22:16

Um one question I wanted to ask you, and and this is just um, you know, off of my own experience and working in the world of marketing and advertising, I think sometimes when times get tough, economic um times where we're in, I think sometimes the marketing budget is is cut. Um, your your advertising budget, especially when it comes to brand, you know, that's something that's like, well, that's not really direct impacting our revenue currently. So we're gonna have to make some changes there. What do you how do you coach companies that that are kind of in that place and they're contemplating those budget cuts because they don't see the immediate return? What do those conversations look like?

Speaker 22:59

So it's like passing people in the rain. Where you have economic um headwinds, it's easy to cut the marketing budget because it's there and it can be a big budget. Um but what I say is you could do that. What's going to happen next year? And the companies that are very careful, you can always cut things. You can do a content audit and cut a lot of the content no one's using and is irrelevant. You can consolidate agencies, you can consolidate the Martech stack, you can always take money out of marketing. And I'm a big believer in marketing being very good judicially of the assets that they have in their remit. But you should spend more. When you do that, you should spend more on things that impact the customer and understanding intent information and AI, things like that to make you more productive. Uh, but if you just cut discriminately, watch out because your competitors are gonna pass you. And when when the market improves, you're gonna have to recover where your competitors are gonna be ahead of you. You want to get ahead of your custom your customers, I mean your competitors during difficult times with economic headwinds. Be you can cut certain things, but then you should invest more in things that the customer uh will see and creating a remarkable customer experience. Or you're just gonna be behind. You're always gonna be playing catch-up. So be careful. That's the conversation I have.

Speaker 1 24:42

Yeah, Alan, you brought it up. I'm I'm really curious with all the consulting you're doing with so many companies and um just making the customer experience better. Talk to me about how AI has affected that and what does it look like going forward? And so how do you educate companies in that area? And how do you because we we've met two groups of people, maybe three, Taryn. We have AI, give me all of it. I want all of it, like give me all of it. Um, I they don't care what it looks like, what it costs, like they want all of it. We have another group that's like, well, what is this gonna do? What does it do to my team? Does it create fear? Um do they think they're gonna be outsourced by AI? Um, and then we do have companies that are just like they want to wait and see, which I don't think is the best approach. But when you're looking at companies, what talk to me a little about how you're consulting and how moving forward, how you utilize AI or don't, depending on the market. And especially since you do a lot of SaaS companies as well. So that that that's why I'm asking. I'm curious to see what the future of that's gonna look like.

External Perspective And Saying No

Speaker 25:45

I use AI all the time. It's it's a wonderful tool. And um if it's used wisely. And um any disruptive innovation throughout history is gonna look like a threat to some. But you have to engage it in the right way. So um it's great for content development, it's great to automate manual processes. It's really great at summarizing convergent information for you to spot things easier. It sucks at divergent information. So if you're looking to break through and do things differently, you still need humans with experience to do that because AI is going to assume the same thing happens over and like for example, um, if uh Eastman Kodak, right? They had the first patents on digital photography, but it was too much of a threat to their film business. Or look at uh Blockbuster and Netflix. You know, block but uh Blockbuster could have acquired Netflix, but it would have been too much of a threat to their late fee business, right? If you would have engaged AI in either of those situations, it would say, be more productive getting late fees and continue with film. Because after revenue, it won't break through and say, hey, do something completely different. That's what you need humans for. So the other thing AI can be dangerous is if you assume you can just throw AI at any process. If the process is broken or sucks or it's not right, AI is just gonna speed up all your errors. You've got to fix the process first and then engage AI. So it's a wonderful tool for so many things, but don't use it for strategy because everybody's using the same LLMs. If you use AI to set your strategy, what's gonna happen is your competitors will beat you to it because they're using the same LLMs. You know, you still need people, but the combination of people and AI is very powerful. So I'm not saying don't use it, but just use it wisely. There are things AI is wonderful at, and they're things you have to be careful. And it does hallucinate too, so you have to check it real carefully.

Speaker 1 28:11

That's probably the greatest explanation of AI that I think I've heard. Um, because I tell people all the time AI can't be innovative. It doesn't take over the human mind of innovation. Right. And like so, and I think that's where people are over dependent on it. So you're kind of seeing the same thing. We see it, we see it on the market. I can tell who's using AI for marketing and who's using um AI for their ad ideas and how they're because they're all similar. And you can scale it.

Career Advice And Closing

Speaker 28:39

Yes. If you go to my website, Demand Revenue, and you go to the resources section, there is a link that says AI Thought Leadership. And I did a series of seven articles that talks about what we're talking about now, you know, the dangers of you know, it convergent versus divergent thinking and how to use how to use and how not to use AI.

Speaker 2 29:02

That's so good, Alan. So yeah, go go to demand um revenue once.

Speaker 29:07

And revenue.

Speaker 2 29:08

I'm going there later, Alan. Because I I agree, Julia. I think that explanation, it just it simplifies it because we all know Blockbuster. Blockbuster, if Blockbuster was so hung up on worried about late fees, I mean, to to think where they could be now and where Netflix is and and the market share that they have.

Speaker 29:28

I'm gonna be passed on acquiring Netflix. It was too much of a threat to their business.

Speaker 1 29:32

Well, they thought it wouldn't take off. They they didn't think this was streaming, like they didn't think streaming would be a thing and they missed it. They missed what they could have done with that. And um, I think I still have a Blockbuster VHS or D D sitting around here somewhere and that probably acquired, you know, a couple thousand and late fees at this point. But yes, they missed the mark. They were unable to see, and I think Alan, you keep bringing this up is when you're talking to CFOs, you're talking to CMOs, what what does it look like a year, two years down the line? What is how does this it's it's a vision mindset? You have to have a visionary mindset.

Speaker 30:07

Yeah, you can't just think the next quarter. What about after that? Are you gonna you're gonna, you know, stop the business then? I mean, you're gonna need pipeline a year from now. How are you gonna get that? And if you don't have a brand, you know, that's your future pipeline. So those are the kind of conversations I have.

Speaker 2 30:25

I think people stay stuck in this place where they're fearful, right? They're fearful to take that that healthy risk. And I think sometimes it it actually is almost necessary where you have to have that third party, someone like yourself, Alan, or someone who's kind of an outsider looking in to be able to kind of have a different perspective. Because when you're in the day-to-day grind, you've got these blinders on, you're in the go, go, go mode, and you're not taking time to kind of reflect or to strategize a year out down the road. And and I can say, even from my, I remember sitting, Alan, in strategy planning meetings, okay, and I'm like, what is this even accomplishing?

unknown 31:06

Right.

Speaker 2 31:06

Are we actually planning for next year? They were painful. And then I think back then I'm like, wait, in the last strategy meeting, did we actually implement anything that we sat around and planned for hours or for weeks at a time? Like, why do we do this to check a box and say, okay, we had our strategy planning meetings? So people could be more effective, I think, when they're having someone who's, you know, an outsider, an unbiased kind of opinion to say, hey, let's think about things differently. Let's consider what risk would look like so we're not missing the mark. And so we're taking into consideration what competitors are doing and what's going to be happening. How is it going to be impacting our business? But like you keep saying, the customers.

Speaker 31:50

Exactly. And, you know, and and it also helps not being in the politics too.

Speaker 2 31:57

Yes, 100%. When you're in the politics of it, in in the day-to-day of it, you you don't always have that healthy outside perspective for sure.

Speaker 32:07

And sometimes people need a little tough love. Not that I, you know, and do it on purpose, but sometimes it's really necessary and very valuable, you know, to help companies think differently.

Speaker 2 32:18

Yeah, I agree. Um one position I was at, I remember we, my team, I was very fortunate we had an outside consultant who, you know, because sometimes there is politics that goes on in in corporate settings. And sometimes that that outside party can help navigate even some of those conversations, like you were saying, just the language between the CMO and the CFO. I think that companies do need to consider investing in those relationships and those partnerships with an outside consultant. Because I think someone in your position, Alan, you do bring tremendous value to the success of an organization because you can help navigate some of those, um, some of those tough places. And um it's just it brings an unbiased party um and insight because when you have somebody who has that experience talking with lots of companies and has their own personal experience, it you know, that's invaluable.

Speaker 33:13

A lot of it's common sense.

Speaker 2 33:16

Don't discredit yourself, Alan.

Speaker 1 33:20

Well, I have a uh theory about common sense, okay? This is what I've learned that what's common for you is not what's common for me. And so I think um, I agree with you. Sometimes I mean Taron do this like, we're like, well, why is this hard for you to figure out? But I realize people just have not been exposed and uh to the same things. And so I think common sense, I don't know if we can use that anymore because the generations, like the generations in the workspace, like I no, I don't think we can use that word common sense anymore. Because what's common, I literally had a conversation with this young lady, she's still in college, and uh she was trying to help me navigate an app and to which she kind of looked at me and she's like, I can't believe you don't know how to do this. And I remember thinking not a nice thing to say. But yeah, but then yeah, I you know what I said, I was like, I can't believe you think it's important to know how to do this.

Speaker 34:13

Like I like it's a great, a great conversation, right? Memorable.

Speaker 1 34:20

I said, um I'm I'm part of the outsourcing crew. Like, if I don't know how to do this, I'm gonna ask some questions and learn it. Like I don't, I'm not afraid of not knowing. And so I think it's just an interesting uh dynamic. But yeah, I agree. Like, I think people are not asking questions, I think as they should be. And I think the lack of questions is creating what I think right now and not understanding the times and what people are going through. I think understanding empathy and having awareness of what's happening in society. Yes. Um, I think COVID was a reality, a reality uh check for a lot of people because I think you assume that people went through COVID the way you went through COVID. And that could be it was hard for you, it was easy for you. I'm an introvert, I was thriving in that season while everything was getting canceled. Um, you know, I was living the time of my life, you know, at home. Uh, but it was very difficult for people, and companies had to come across this new, this new thing, this new thing that they had to deal with. And I think new things are hard for people and it's hard for companies.

Speaker 35:25

It they are. Yeah. You have to bring people along. So also less is more, you know, focus on the few things that matter. A lot of a lot of people forget that. They try to do too much, just way too much, you know. And then yeah, and you know, if you try to do 10 things, you'll probably do three well, but those wouldn't be the same three you would pick if you'd say what are the three you really want to get done well.

Speaker 2 35:52

So well, I think that also leads to burnout and you know, you're not really like you said, you're not being effective. Yeah. Well, Alan, um, thank you so much for this conversation. Before we wrap up, um, we because I do think that you bring so many valid points just to the approach companies need to take with understanding the value of marketing and how that really ties to the success of an organization and you know, identifying those places of importance to really put your focus on. Um, but before we wrap up, you know, I I when I have this conversation with you, Alan, you seem kind of like this this general in the place of like marketing and how to navigate difficult conversations. And I'm sure you have tons on your website that people can reference later at their own time. Um, and thank you for that. Thank you for mentioning those resources. We'll definitely check them out. But throughout your career, maybe there was someone who kind of give gave you some advice along the way, or maybe it's um, you know, something that you've come across through your own life journey. What would you say to those that that want to, you know, focus on less and and do a better job at those things that really are important, um, whether they are new in leadership or whether they're seasoned in leadership, what would you encourage people with as we wrap up today?

Speaker 37:12

Probably two things. One is don't be afraid to get cross-functional experience. To the extent you can move from one function to another to begin to appreciate what people are dealing with. That never hurt me at all. You know, I started in finance, I went into a little bit of consulting and marketing, then sales, then back and marketing, then I had some PLGM, but my cross-functional experience always helped me. And the other thing, you know, don't be afraid to try things when you have an opportunity. And uh my favorite quote is from Churchill, and it's the definition of success is moving from failure to failure with no loss of enthusiasm. I've had that in my career where I've had transitions, always ended up better, but don't be afraid of failure. Try things. Try things and get diversity in your career, and that will serve you well over time. Maybe not immediately, but you will know over time that those experiences really help you. And you learn from from failure as well. So don't don't don't try to be perfect, you know? Uh, and be open to opportunities and be flexible to them as they come up in your career.

Speaker 2 38:33

That's so good. So, Alan, are you open to doing life coaching sessions with myself?

Speaker 38:39

If you like, let me know.

Speaker 2 38:42

I think that's, you know, I think that's a struggle for for many. Um, just speaking for myself, but sometimes you're too hard on yourself and you strive for a perfection instead of being okay with failure. And it's so good. I think that's such great advice is be okay with the failure and and have enthusiasm doing so because I think that just sets you up for the next for the next adventure, right? Um but thank you so much for joining us. This conversation has just been amazing.

Speaker 39:09

Thank you. My pleasure.