From QR Codes To End-To-End Events: How One Company Scaled Mid Pandemic

In this episode, we sit down with Luke Ireland, CEO of Creventa to uncover how the company scaled from simple QR code operations to full end-to-end event experiences—in the middle of a global shutdown. This conversation challenges traditional leadership thinking and explores how innovation, culture, and courageous decision-making can thrive in uncertainty. 

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Not theory. Not fluff. Just honest conversations with leaders and innovators who've been in the trenches.

Transcript

Welcome And Luke’s Backstory

Speaker 0:00

I think you just have to see the opportunity, right? I think we know we we knew that the venues would reopen. You can't be too despondent. You've got to be positive about this stuff. And whilst the world clearly changed and has changed forever, you know, um, we knew that culturally that people like getting together, you know, it's another unique thing to the UK. And um you could see that people were sneaking about and trying to meet meet a meet of friends and stuff. You could see that happening.

Speaker 1 0:28

It was the UK press was full of it. So at Elements of Culture, we sit down with experts in leadership and team building to explore the DNA that drives a thriving organization.

Speaker 2 0:38

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Elements of Culture. My name's Taryn, and I'm joined with my co-host Julie. And today we are speaking to Luke Ireland. He is the CEO and co-founder of Creventa. Luke, welcome to the show.

Speaker 0:54

Hi, that's Haren. Hi, Julie.

Speaker 2 0:56

Hi, Luke. Thank you so much for joining us. We are so excited to have a conversation about leadership, about taking risk and starting a company in the middle of a pandemic, as you shared with us, which I can't imagine some of the um anxiety, maybe thoughts, questioning that one might have during a time as far as 2020, as we all remember very well. But for someone who was taking a risk and starting a company, that's wild. So I'm excited to talk to you about that. Before we dig into your leadership and the story of Creventa, can you tell us just a little bit about your background and also where you're joining us from today?

Speaker 1:38

Sure. So I'm joining you from London, Southwest London, Richmond, just near Wimbledon, if you know the tennis uh tennis tournament. And um, yeah, so my background is technology, primarily, um, where that's been working for pure technology companies, so computer manufacturers or um in the music industry working on the data side. Uh so that's what my background is running sales teams and tech teams, um, technology teams within those industries.

Speaker 2 2:06

Beautiful. So I appreciate that. So your background is really um the tech space. And you know, tech space and uh just a lot of industries. We saw such a shift about five years ago, well, five and a half years ago, roughly. And your space, specifically that you were in, obviously took a change as well. Tell me a little bit about how the space you're in, how things took such a change when COVID hit.

Pubs Shut, A Pivot Begins

Speaker 2:34

Yeah, sure. So it's in the hospitality software business, and you know, there were no all the venues shut, certainly in the UK and probably mainly across the world. But in the UK, all the venues shut. Um, you know, one Sunday evening we were told that was it. Uh, all of our customers were closing, and um, you know, um we're hospitality people, so we didn't really, you know, want to try and keep charging them when their businesses were closed too. So we took the decision to close that business, but then thought, right, what can we do next? You know, um, and we realized that you know uh table service, uh ordering table would be a thing in the UK, uh, given the restrictions. Still took a bit of a gamble because clearly we never knew we didn't know when the venue's gonna reopen, right? You just no one really knew, especially when we still when we started the business and sort of the idea came early April, so just after the pandemic shutdown started, and we're like, okay, well, they're gonna open one day. We can't they can't be shut forever. That was the that was our hope. Our local pub can't close. Um so uh we you know we we really sort of gamble to do that and and to say, right, you know, what else have you got, right? We are we're hot and software people, we've got to do something, um, and we've got to do something which we think is going to work. So we were very fortunate in that we had some great connections in that industry, a lot of very local businesses, local to us that we were through our network, we were able to talk to, uh, and then they weren't open, and to plan um implementing our software in a QR code based order at or a table service, which um we did went on to pretty well during the pandemic.

Speaker 2 4:02

Wow, that so you took a bet on the local pub not closing, and that's what birthed the business.

Speaker 4:08

Yeah, that's right. You know, we took the bet on the on the on the British attitude to drinking, right?

Speaker 2 4:13

I guess. Yeah. Well, and I think that's a good way to assess your business opportunity is where's the demand, right? Where what are people wanting? Where are they spending their time, their energy, their resources, and taking all of that into consideration and really making the pivot? I think that many businesses during the during the pandemic, especially lots of businesses did have to pivot, but we also saw a lot of businesses have to close. Yep. Um what do you think the difference was for you guys? Obviously, you took that risk, you you took a bet on the business, but what do you think was the difference for you and your your co-founder at Cuventa from other businesses that just closed indefinitely and didn't take a pivot?

Betting On Table Service And QR

Speaker 4:55

I think you just have to see the opportunity, right? I think we know we we knew that the venues would reopen. You can't be too despondent, you've got to be positive about this stuff. And whilst the world clearly changed and has changed forever, you know, um, we knew that culturally that people like getting together, you know, it's another unique thing to the UK. And um you could see that people were sneaking about and trying to meet me to meet friends and stuff. You could see that happening. It was the UK press was full of it. So uh we knew it would happen, right? So it was just a matter of timing. Um, I think we were quite fortunate. It wasn't that long. You know, we we we opened the pubs again on July the 4th. Good day for the US. Um, not not so you know, great day for the UK, independence day. The pubs were open, great, fantastic. They shut again quite a few a few weeks later, a few months later, but yeah, and then opened again. They shut it. It was it was an interesting experience that, but we knew that basically the cultural uh desire was there to to to keep them open.

Speaker 3 5:55

So Luke, talk to me a little bit about um so you have this QR code idea. Talk to me how you how you pitched this to the customers, like how what what was their response and how did you get people on board with that to keep their businesses open and make it something that they knew that they could utilize?

Speaker 6:13

Well, there's there was legislation, so they had to they had to have order at table, and they they couldn't they they typically in the UK market guests guests will order at a bar. Um and that's obviously not possible when you can't stand up, but the rules in the UK where you couldn't stand up because stand-ups go to the restroom and that was it. Um so um clearly with that legislation coming in, it it there need to be a solution. Um, we also sort of knew, and this has been proved time and time again with our platform as it's progressed, is that when people order digitally they spend more money. So we were able to say, look, we we think, you know, with our experience at digital marketing for for pre previous uh companies, is that if you offer people more expensive things, then they will buy them. Uh and a classic example would be you go to the bar right now, and there's 30 bottles of gin, sometimes more than that in some British pubs, and you know, which one do you buy, right? You buy the one that you you recognise or the one that you you would think about Gordon's or whatever. Whereas on the digital platform, you might see options and special office and upsell. So we did see foresee that as a big opportunity for Probabs to to upsell. And some of our um clients actually within even with the constraints of the you couldn't get up and all that sort of stuff, their sales were higher than they were pre-COVID, which is because people were spending more money. Um, because they're upselling. Um we see we've seen that as we progress the the the business that when you give people a choice, they'll spend they'll they'll they'll spend more money.

Speaker 2 7:52

Yeah, that that's so interesting. Yeah, you give them options and so they're not just defaulting, you know, to what they previously ordered. Luke, um, one of the things that you guys do um at Creventa is not only just like the QR code for the hospitality and hotels, but you also help with larger events. Yeah. Uh tell us a little bit about that. How did you go from transitioning in that QR space, you know, into helping businesses and events really scale? Uh, what has that journey looked like?

Digital Ordering And Higher Spend

Speaker 8:25

Yeah, sure. So we we realize we still do the QR code business, but it's it's it's decline coming out of the pandemic. It's not so talking to it with the UK. So the events market is a business that we knew price for price of the pandemic for a different business. We know that events are quite complicated to organize. Typically, people will be using spreadsheets or post-it notes or email, bits of people, bits of paper, moving around. So a single system that they can everyone can manage an event on, and with the challenges around that, so particularly issues around allergens and dietary preferences. Now, 14% of people at an event will specify they've got allergen or dietary preference. It's a big issue for kitchen, for serving staff. Obviously, allergens are quite serious, could result in death. Dietary preferences are also serious to a lot of people. So we knew that that that from our experience, my business business partner's experience of running an events venue prior to 17 years prior to the pandemic, um, that there was definitely a gap in the market for software that could organise bigger events. Typically, the events we manage a 50 plus, so it's a wedding or a corporate event or a celebration or of life or whatever. Um, but we do manage smaller events than that, but but and and up to several thousand attendees, um, that a set a single system that can manage that and can take a lot of the stress away from the staff. Because at the same time, in the UK, 300,000 people left hospitality during that period because suddenly people got jobs and thought, I don't have to work weekends anymore. Right? It's a big change for that for that industry. A lot of it's a big issue for healthcare industry, salary staff costs going up, all those things happening. So the retaining staff became an issue for venues. Prior to the pandemic, it wasn't. Post the pandemic, it definitely was an issue. How does your how do you keep them retained, get get keep them retained staff? So having systems in place suddenly became important that you won't, they won't do menial tasks anymore, they won't have to handwrite 500 placecards, you know, all that sort of stuff. So we really saw the opportunity to streamline it. Hospitality software is typically not very modern or or sophisticated, and that's where we saw a real opportunity to have our knowledge of the market and also our ability and technology to deliver a solution.

Speaker 3 10:37

Well, talk to me a little bit about how you were motivating your team during that time to go out and sell. I mean, it was difficult. I think it was a difficult time period for a lot of people. And I think when we're trying, when we talk about the restaurants closing and we think about all that happened in hospitality, because I think even in the US, that we were very, that market was very hardly hit. And people did not recoup, some lot of our businesses did not recoup from that. Um, talk to me about how you're motivating and coaching your sales team in that in that time frame to go out and how to be, you know, empathetic, compassionate, but still aggressive in our sales approach and what you know solutions you provide as a company.

Speaker 11:20

Yeah, sure. So at the time we did have an outbound outbound sales for obviously going and visiting people. Um we hired some people who were from that, from used weren't software salespeople, but are used to selling particular wines to to those type of venues. So that they really understood that the challenges those venues were facing. Um so that's you know, in terms of motivating them, they they first of all they needed a job, it's always good. Uh, but secondly, you know, they needed to, they they everyone who works for the business, whether it's then or now, we love hospitality. That's our thing, right? We we know that this industry needs help. Um, and we're all about making better events, making better, making venues more profitable, making them more efficient, not just to keep our software business going, but to keep hospitality going. And that's the way we really, that's where we focus on the sales side as well, making sure that we're empathetic with people. We're not, we're not selling stuff. We're we do a consultive sales process, we're not going to ram software down people's throats and worry about a subscription. We quite often, you know, um do trials for people because just to help them see the benefits. So that's how we are we we have that empathy for the industry, and I think that's where what we challenge for ourselves to.

From QR To Complex Events

Speaker 2 12:28

I love that because the culture at your company is really representative of understanding the industry of hospitality, is what you're saying. And when I think of hospitality, I think of a fun time. I think of people gathering and and having you know community and telling stories and laughing and sharing life together. And it's it's an opportunity to connect. And so it sounds like you know, your software, you're pairing that with the industry and helping to solve for that. So tell me, tell me a little bit, uh, Luke, about the culture within Creventa. How do you how do you really drive that mission forward to your staff, whether they're on the product development side or there's you know folks that are on the sales side? How as a leader, as a as a CEO and co-founder, how do you really make culture a part of everyday living?

Speaker 13:21

Um so we're you know, very clear our mission is to enable staff in venue to spend more time with guests, delivering a better experience. That's our that's everything we do is around that. You know, whether we're reducing ad-bin time, whether we're making it easier for the guests to order, whether we're dealing with the health and safety issues around allergens, you know, it is about how to spend more time with guests because you know, um, people remember when they arrive at an event, they arrive, they don't remember the bit in the middle too much, actually. They arrive, they remember the arrival bit and the bit when they leave when they're leaving. So we know we that's where the staff have the most interaction with guests. So we focus on that. Everything we do, whether it's new modules for software development, whether it's a sales approach, it's all around how do we enable you to spend more time with your guests, and that really is our culture, that's our mission that is to get you know, um, is to reduce the painful things about hospitality, the admin work and the stuff no one wants to do, um, and and do the and everyone who works in hospitality wants to have happy guests. That's it. So we can all everything we do is driven around that.

Speaker 3 14:32

So look, talk to me a little bit about how you prepare your team for five years down the road and ten years down the road for hospitality. Do you see a lot of shifting in that culture? And how do we prep our teams for that and stay innovative in those spaces and how to continue to meet the needs of the hospitality? Because hospitality has changed quite a bit post-COVID and how it looks and how it performs. And I think with different generations now coming out uh and the way we do community looks a little bit different too, uh, post-COVID. So talk to me a little about what's on the horizon for Proventa. What are you what are you planning? What are you thinking? What are your expectations? Or um, do you think it's going to remain the same for a while?

Allergen Risks And Guest Preferences

Speaker 15:14

No, we're constantly innovating our products. You know, we we we release new versions of our software every week. So it's we're constantly adding new functionality or refining existing processes. We we're building out an end-to-end platform that eliminates, could eliminate all other manual systems and other bits and pieces in the event process. So it should be that right from the initial booking all the way through to post-event feedback, you can use prevents to do the whole process. We think that's essential. We think in every one of our customers we talk to wants to use less systems, not more. You know, if we ever get pushback from a client, it's because well, you've got five systems already. We love what you do, but can you get rid of one of them and then we'll talk to you about yours as well? You know, that that that's that's what that's the pushback we get of anything at all. So, yeah, that and the digital side of it, you know, the whole um, you know, the the ability for guests to do self-service, to order in advance, to whether it's food or drinks or whatever, for them to be safely communicated around about dietary preference and allergens. You mentioned, you know, obviously the younger, the younger the the audience, um, the more likely they are to recognise an allergen, and the more likely or and the more likely they are to have a dietary preference. And that could be I don't like mushrooms, but it's still a dietary preference, right? So you've got the healthy health issues, and you've got the personal issues. So um, yeah, there's lots of different there's there's the demand. One thing for sure is the demands of the guest are going up and up and up. Even if you're buying a burger from a fast food joint now, the the expectation is is different than it was five years ago, ten years ago. When you're sitting down for a meal, that elevates even higher, right? And especially then you go to sit down to a black tie dinner, that's even higher. So, but what we do know is that those type of experience events, whether that's uh music and food or you know, some sort of other entertainment or just the the glamour of a black tie event, more people looking for that type of experience, but at the same time, their expectations are getting higher and higher. Um, and if you're to live to deliver high quality experience, particularly on the food side, you've got to manage it properly. Uh, you've got to be all really organized. Because if you're doing big K training for say for 1200 people at a conference, yet five years ago you could get away with well, there's the there's the there's a the normal option, and then there's a other people option to be covered as vegans and vegetarians. You can't do that anymore. You've got to have multiple options for different people, and the only way to manage that is with a proper system. So we just see that that prevents the scaling with that. We rub high-demanding customers because we manage high-demanding customers really well.

Speaker 2 17:53

That's so good. Uh, yeah, I think it all comes down to the customer. I, as someone who previously worked in hospitality and catering, um, I'm I'm at a smaller scale, I'm sure. Um, but the customer, you always have to see the needs of the customer. So, and even as a customer in different industries, we as consumers, like you said, our demands are increasing. Our knowledge is increasing, technology is impacting that in so many areas. Now, with AI being implemented into so many areas of the business, I'm curious, Luke, what are you guys seeing as you continue to plan and scale for Curventa? How is AI assisting or not in certain areas as you plan and scale the business for the next couple of years? Because we as consumers, we are trying to utilize different tech tools to uh be more efficient, right? And businesses are doing the same. So, what does that look like for you guys as you're planning? Because hospitality is unique, it's a personal experience.

Speaker 18:59

Yeah, so and in terms of the delivery of food and delivery of the personal service, I don't think AI is going to touch that for quite for quite some time. Um, I think I think humanoid robots are powered by AI are a way off. Uh, but um, I'm not sure I'd even want that if I was if I was going out for a meal. Um, but in terms of the event management, so the the inquiry management, you know, putting an inquiry into a venue, I'd like to my wedding, continue my your venue for my wedding. These increase, this is the type of size of audience, this is the type of food I want. You know, give me some suggestions around good weekends to have it on based on weather data, you know, um, the type of things you can do based on other um uh data points. We're seeing that on the inquiry management side start to come in. Um, but it's there's still a lot of human touch, you know, and again, that example then of a wedding, that's a really personal thing. And and people don't want to be talking to a chatbot about their wedding. And actually, most people don't want to talk about talking chatbot about anything really um when it comes to an event because it is quite a it is quite a uh it's a personal. Personal thing, but we are using where it's appropriate for sure.

Staffing Shifts And System Needs

Speaker 3 20:04

So you talked about the human element. And so I want to go into a little bit about how you for people for customers who possibly have a little bit of fear of the human element going away. How do you continue to encourage them in like this is to assist in that, to have more time, not necessarily take away from that? Because you don't want to take away the customer experience based off what you're telling me. You want to spend more time with your customers. Talk to me about how you kind of like how do you talk to a client and say, hey, this is not to that you have less touch points with the customer, yet more so more.

Speaker 20:42

Yeah, sure. So typically an event manager at a hotel will have two roles event manager, so they're running events, and they're probably the event sales manager as well. It's just a dual role. And often we talk to them and their initial response will be, oh, wow, this is taking my job away from me, you know. Or I all that fun time I have collecting all those orders from guests, or you know, the writing out of place cards, and you then you think, right, okay, all that funny of writing out place cars, and they go, okay, yeah, actually, they don't really enjoy that. Uh so um, you know, we but we say all the extra time you can spend looking at new sales opportunities, all the the chaos goes away. And I think that's what's the most important thing about our system. We take the chaos out out of other events. Now we're not affecting their jobs, we're taking all the boring things and we're and we're adding value to them that means their events run smoother. Uh, and they then see that the venues that use our system where they see the events running smoother and their guests are happier, and then we have some um uh executive assistants, for example, that say to us they will only book venues that use Crumenta because the quality of the of the event runs so smoothly that venues they're they're picking venues that use our system. So that when you when you talk to um of sales opportunities and guests around that or hosts around that, it's a real it's a no-brainer from their point of view. So it's uh the technology is coming, you've got to embrace it because other venues are doing it, and if you're if you're not doing it, then you're you're in a disadvantage.

Speaker 3 22:11

So, Luke, why are you coming to the US?

Empathy-First Sales Culture

Speaker 22:15

Well, you know, it's interesting. So a core part of our business is pre-orders, and pre-orders is not an American thing. You know, um, if you could sit down to a meal in the UK and there's more than eight people, you'll be asked to pre-order your food. Now, that's not a very typical American thing yet. But what we do deliver by doing that, it would deliver 20% food waste savings. So I think you know, it might take a bit, it might take might be not be next year, but it will be soon where we can, you know, we've got global clients who are US-based uh brands that operate in the UK and Europe. Uh, and you know, when they start to see that one of those brands sees a 21% reduction in their food waste, you know, and that's a big global brand that sees that, can see that in the UK hotel, then potentially it might be well, it might not be a cultural thing in the US now, but actually that level of safety, not just from a cost point of view, but from an environmental point of view, I think it's um it it will the US is a good opportunity for us for sure, but we're just gonna get that little bit of uh cultural stuff over and done with first of all.

Speaker 2 23:25

Yeah, so that it's funny you were asking about that, Julie, because that that was my question, Lucas. What are you guys doing to scale currently? You know, for the next year, the next two years? Is it expanding into other markets like the US? Is it expanding into other areas? Um, you know, what's your plan for expansion? And then to follow that up, what are the current challenges that you see as you're moving towards that expansion and slightly?

Speaker 23:54

First of all, it's products, so but building out the rest of our platform so that we've got the complete and end-to-end and event management solution. That does a challenge for the next three to six months. Um, in terms of you know, uh growing and growing the business, we're growing quickly, quickly. We've just got some really good contracts recently with some pretty big global players. Standings in slightly different categories, so we are mainly folks on hotels, but we're doing um business with uh some soccer stadiums now, some rugby stadiums and cricket stadiums, uh starting to expand into different into different areas of the market. We still have in hospitality. Um, but everyone in hospitality is looking to reduce cost, whichever country in the world it is. But you know, you just take the UK where we operate most. Sorry, wage costs are going up massively, particularly in the UK. Um, cost of food's going up, cost of ingredients is gone, our cost of energy is going up. You wouldn't believe the price that we have to pay for gas, gasoline, and and gas in the UK, I can tell you. Um so um it's massive. We have the most expensive energy in the world. What a great um what a great claim to fame. Uh so yeah, all those costs are going up and up and up. So everyone's looking at reducing costs. And they're never gonna you you can't get rid of rid of chefs, you can't have less chefs, you can't have less people serving because you know these don't those things don't work, right? What you can do is reduce the waste, you can reduce your back end, your admin costs. So we see that as a drive for grace, that demand from the market for cost reduction without, as we said earlier on, that service reduction because you can't afford to give poor service anymore. The expectation is just so much higher. So that's where we see our growth coming from. Product expansion, and then just the push that we're making to the market. And as we grow more and more venues, you know, more people see the results, and it's that's that helps our growth massively.

Mission: More Time With Guests

Speaker 2 25:47

So, what are the like what would you say is your most like biggest challenges right now? Um, you know, I think you were sharing with us prior to our conversation today some of the different environments that you came out of and what versus what you wanted to build. You know, do you feel like some of the challenges are um you know, something within the organization that you have control over, or is it more uncontrollable? What are the biggest challenges and setbacks do you feel like you guys currently face right now?

Speaker 26:18

The challenge is always getting a demo with a client. That's always our challenge because the if the client, if a client, if a prospect sees our product and they're the right ICP, then they're likely that we can benefit them. Um, so you know, we've had a lot of challenges internally around positioning. For ages, people would tell I I would look at our website and think it doesn't really tell people what we do, you know. Uh it's a classic positioning issue. So we've had some help with that recently. Um the marketing side, we never read any marketing, we're doing we're doing some marketing now on LinkedIn, etc. So it's that positioning, making it obvious to people what our product does, and that's been a challenge for us. Um, and we've we've we've we've overcome that, I believe, in in recent weeks. Um, the challenge is going to be saving the company. So we've got a very, very high uh customer service ethic. You know, we respond with a solution to on average within 14 minutes of receiving a support call. So, you know, and we don't have a lot of support calls to be fair, but we do, you know, we do we respond quickly with a solution to the issue. And setting that, I think, is going to be the challenge for us because we're, you know, we I don't want to ever lose that touch with our cluster customers. We set we found this business saying hospitality software is awful. We don't want to be, we don't want to be that brand that no that no one can get hold of and no one likes. So that for me, I think over the next six to twelve months as we grow is going to be the hardest thing to really keep under keep under control.

Speaker 2 27:47

So, Luke, what would you say for someone who is branching out? Maybe they would like you, maybe they want to leave a different work environment, maybe they want to take a healthy risk and go into business and they've identified a need um or a gap somewhere. What would you say to someone who is thinking about that? You know, what advice have you received along your journey that's really helped you build and to take that leap of faith and build something?

Building A Unified Event Platform

Speaker 28:18

Okay. Well, I think uh in terms of building something, we're the the the the the luckiest point in any time in human civilization regarding the ability to build MVPs on software, right? I mean, AI, no-code tools, uh Repli and Lovable, you know, it's it's amazing what you can do in terms of and we use those tools for prototyping ourselves. You can make an MVP in in a couple of hours, right? That that that that that proves does your does your product work on a high level? Can you get some interest in it? So from that point of view, you know, if you've got a great idea and you feel confident in your ability to sell it, you know, I think that's uh that then then I then that's the most important thing from my point of view. You know, there's lots of ideas I see and I think, well, that's great, but who's gonna buy that? You have to be honest with yourself and get some honest feedback as to whether you think you're gonna sell it. But you know, what we did was just get five customers, you know, that proves the point as long as you're in the right market. Um, so you know, it's the best time in history to do it, you know, I think from that from that point of view, um, in in in the software market for short. Um, and I think you know, in terms of advice, it's I it's a happened one, but make sure it's something you're passionate about because otherwise you'll get you will get very, very weary very quickly if you don't really believe in what you do.

Speaker 2 29:38

Yeah, that's so good. Don't build something you don't love, right? That you can't, it's your it's your baby, it's your time, it's your energy. And you know, you also have to bring people alongside you to build with you. And so, yeah, that's absolutely right.

Speaker 3 29:54

Yeah, I think passion can go a long way. Um and sometimes motivation is not needed when you're passionate about what you do. So I totally agree with you, Luke. I think you got to do something you absolutely love, um, because that innately creates a motivation and a drive um that you don't have to um motivate and self-talk yourself so much.

Speaker 30:16

I think we've all been on the other end of a salesperson that you that it does not want to sell the product we're saying. So, you know, I mean you can tell. You can't hide it, right? You can't hide either, you can't hide it, you can't have hide lack of interest, and you can't hide your real passion for something just comes out in in what you're doing, right? So um, yeah, it's not it's an hack-wheel expression, I think, an old expression, but it's really, really true. Especially if you do it for yourself, you can do it for someone else for a while and you can get by and knife, but if you're gonna do it for yourself, if you're gonna put your mortgage on the line or whatever, then you need to be make sure that it's it's so you uh that first of all that you believe in, but secondly that they you really have shown. You know, I'd say recommend anyone before they give up their job, especially given the tools that are out there now, if they're doing a SaaS product, get an MVP going, get five customers, get ten customers, you know. If you don't have to make any money selling to them, you know, but prove that there's a demand out there, that's the most important thing.

Speaker 2 31:15

Luke, thank you so much for joining us today on Elements of Culture to have this conversation. We so appreciate your time, your expertise, and I'm excited to see where Creventa goes over the next couple of years.

Speaker 31:25

Yeah, fantastic. Thanks, thanks for your time. Thanks for each next time.