How To Attract A-Players, Lead Change, And Reduce Turnover

The hardest part of leadership isn’t writing the strategy—it’s keeping your best people energized long enough to deliver it. We sit down with CEO John Gulnac to unpack a practical playbook for retention, recruiting top performers, and steering change without burning out the team. If you’re tired of churn, slow hiring cycles, and initiatives that stall after kickoff, this conversation gives you clear, usable moves.

Join us weekly as we dig into the real stories behind work culture transformation.

Not theory. Not fluff. Just honest conversations with leaders and innovators who've been in the trenches.

Transcript

The Retention Question

Speaker 0:00

Are you an organization that's going to create a learning environment? Okay. Are you an organization that's going to create a learning environment plus development opportunities plus career advancement opportunities? Because you can learn, learn, learn all day long. But if you only get that 3% wage and you do the same job every day, every day, and you can't apply the new skills, you're going to look for a new employer and you're going to have company churn and you want retention. You want your teams staying together. That's a universal company goal, is we we don't want turnover. We want to keep our core because we know we're going to create a better customer quality, client quality experience if we've got people that know what they're doing and are tenured.

Speaker 2 0:36

At Elements of Culture, we sit down with experts in leadership and team building to explore the DNA that drives a thriving organization. Welcome everyone to Elements of Culture. My name is Taryn, and I'm joined with my co-host Julie. And today we have the pleasure of speaking with CEO John Golnack. He is the CEO of Solomon Edwards. It's a professional services firm. And we're so glad that you're joining us from Austin, Texas today for this conversation.

Speaker 1:03

Thank you so much, Taryn and Julie. It's a pleasure to be here. Really looking forward to it.

Speaker 2 1:07

Yes, us too. We have already had some fun conversations before we hit record here today. So I'm excited to dig into just some fun topics and talk about some interesting things as it relates to culture leadership and different ways that you really like to focus on team building, John. But before we get into all those fun topics and different culture and leadership things that we like to talk about on the show, I would love for you to just give a little bit more of an introduction to yourself, if you want to share any background information at all and how you've gotten to the place where you're at today.

Career Journey And Culture Lessons

Speaker 1:44

Sure. Happy to start there. Economics and math by by school, graduated from Ursinas College just outside of Philadelphia. And from there, I went into financial services in a sales uh production role, you know, early on in my career. Everything from impaired life insurance, fixed annuities, health plans, things like that. Um really learned an appreciation for direct business to business and business to consumer sales approaches. A lot of rejection, a lot of hangups, um, you know, a lot of tough days, but it really gave me a great callus. Um then I got introduced to professional services, started off in staffing, morphed into consulting. And with those teams, it kind of blended my background in business and management, um, growing up in banking, growing up in financial services sales, really prepared me to have more of a bigger picture kind of investment perspective on the business. And I just sought that out through my career. Uh increasing responsibilities in sales and operations management. This is my second run at CEO now. Uh previously led a large uh skilled staffing firm, about 200 plus million. Uh now we're in the professional consulting services space, which is near and dear to my heart. I grew up uh in that space in finance and accounting. And actually, the first place I had my first finance and accounting staffing sales job was across the street from Solomon Edwards, where I now sit at the helm as CEO. So a little bit of full circle in the journey over the last 22-ish years, but it's been a really fun ride. And I've gained a lot of perspective working for small companies, mid-sized companies, large companies, publicly traded, private, on what good can look like and and and and what different elements of culture can really drive an organization, you know, both positively and negatively. So I think that's where I got to the chair now is I've been able to accumulate enough perspectives to where I think I can bring value and create new views and new lens. And now Solomon Edwards, we're just we're trying to be the biggest, largest tech-enabled professional services firm that that we can be right now. And I'm really excited for the growth ahead of us.

Speaker 2 4:03

That's amazing. So I imagine that the relationship with the folks across the street, your previous position, you still have those relationships intact, or you just kind of waving each other every now and then?

Speaker 4:15

You know, that's a good thing about working from home in Austin. That street's a long way away, right? Um, so you know, we'll we'll we'll we'll play nice, um, but we're actually in different in different markets right now. So um no tension, it's all good.

Speaker 2 4:28

Yeah, that's funny. Well, thank you for giving us that background. Uh I love that you have different experiences with different types of companies uh for sure, just to help give you that really rounded perspective and experience. Um, I'm curious, working with different sized companies um over the years, what has been some like common themes, common trends that you have seen that certainly made an impact and maybe some some of the ways that you even incorporate those trends into uh building Solomon Edwards now?

Speaker 5:01

Yeah, that's a that's a deep question.

Speaker 2 5:04

Um kicking us off, John. We're gonna we're getting started now.

Recognition, Learning, And Progression

Speaker 5:08

All right, warm-ups over, right? So um warm-up, let's go. The the the core of it is everybody wants to be valued. You know, whether you're an employee at a small company or a large company, you are getting up and you are hopefully giving an honest, you know, effort every day. And and you're doing it for the people that you care about. You're doing it for all the reasons why, right? Your loved ones and where you want to go in your own life. And because you're given all that energy, you want to be valued. You want to be respected by your employer, you want to know that what you're doing means something, right? So at a larger company, it can be really hard to tie the meaning of what you do. Like, why am I doing this every day? Like, this feels redundant, and this feels like I'm just a cog, right? And that that value can eventually erode your self-respect and your worth, right? So you've you've got to be careful on that. And that's that's a negative aspect. But the larger companies can also afford sometimes more tools, more conveniences, more amenities that can make your job a little bit easier. That when you're at a smaller company, you don't have the luxury of all the cash and infrastructure. You're like, damn, this is harder than it used to be. I gotta, I gotta work a little bit more. Where's that tool, right? Oh, well, we don't have that. You gotta use the base model, right? But it is so small that everything you see has this ripple effect and can be can be very, oh that, wow now, look at the impact Juli had. And you can trace things back to a person. And there's there's a great sense of accomplishment there. Um, and you see that. So I look at that as one big driver recognition. Do I see what I do and how it contributes to the company? Can I follow that through so I feel good about waking up every day and give my effort? So that's that's got to be a core, regardless of the size of the company. Then then you kind of look at the other kind of human needs of being an employee. And and I I think for many people who are who are driven to want a little bit more, it's this desire to learn. You're curious. And and and you you only stop being curious when when you stop learning, right? The more you keep learning, it's almost like in a drug. Like you keep reading, you keep learning, you want more. So are you an organization that's gonna create a learning environment? Okay. Are you an organization that's gonna create a learning environment plus development opportunities plus career advancement opportunities? Because you can learn, learn, learn all day long. But if you only get that 3% wage and you do the same job every day, every day, and you can't apply the new skills, you're gonna look for a new employer and you're you're gonna have company churn and you want retention. You want your teams staying together. That's a universal company goal, is we we don't want turnover. We want to keep our core because we know we're gonna create a better customer quality, client quality experience if we've got people that know what they're doing in our tenure. So we've got to keep our people, we've got to keep them engaged, we've got to keep them feeling valued and tied to the outcome, regardless of our size. Um, but we in order to create career progression, you you have to allow people to move in and out of their comfort zones. You have to let people fail. You have to force people out of the nest sometimes, but you you have to move them. And and you you've got to get them in a place where they understand not every move is up the ladder run. And and sometimes you've got to go two-step sideways before you can take that one step forward. And I tried to learn how to Texas two-step down here, and it's quick, quick, slow, slow, quick, quick, slow, slow. You know, that's how your career works sometimes. Sometimes it's a quick, quick, and you gotta knock out work. And then you gotta wait a little bit. Why? Because you need perspective, you need time. So I think those were the the I got all of those core elements from slightly different perspectives from all of my experiences now. So I try to keep those three things really intact. Um, how how can I attract somebody here because they're bought in on a vision that they can still make a contribution to? How once they're here, can I keep them engaged and keep them happy, right? And then once they're ready for more, how can I, how can I help them get that? If you can do that, you're gonna grow your company. Like, like the rest of the rest of the stuff, I hate to say it's easy because it's not, but the rest of the stuff doesn't have a human element to it. The rest of the stuff is outcomes of things, right? So um I focus on those three things.

Speaker 1 9:19

So, John, I love that you talk about you know keeping your people. And so one of the things that we kind of touched on is, and we hear this amongst other leaders too, is they have a certain percentage that's their top talent, like their top performers, and then they have the rest. And you know, you and me had a brief conversation in regards to how to attract top talent, how to, because what we're seeing right now is we have a team of people and we coach them up to be great talent, you know, after we see them struggling. But you are big on being able to recruit top talent and knowing talk to me a little bit about that process for you and what you're looking at. You've had great success in recruiting. So talk to me about what what what are the leaders missing? What are we missing when we're looking for top talent and what are the things you're looking for?

Attracting And Keeping Top Performers

Team Architecture And Keystones

Speaker 10:05

Yeah, I think I think the first thing is be really humble. Like we need the top talent more than they need us, right? And and and I think some people come in a little on the on the wrong side of that equation, thinking, I'm the biggest, baddest, or I'm the most um I'm emerging, or we have this, or okay. So just six other competitors, like, like you're not you're not a unicorn for the most part, right? Maybe that existed back in the day with Google, but not anymore, right? That's gone. That that fantasy is gone. So I think you've got to come in very open and honestly and understand what is most important to this top performer. They can go and they can do this anywhere. What do they need that's not being met? Um, culturally, you can't condone and you can't allow mediocrity. That kills top performers. If I'm gonna kill myself and I'm gonna crush it and I'm gonna be number one, but but employee B over here can just cast it in and phone it in and nothing happens to them. No. That that that immediately pushes away top performers. So if you're gonna attract top talent, you have to be prepared to manage out underperforming talent. Because if you don't, and if you're all bark and all bite, top talent sees right through that, they're gone, right? So I also embrace this whole concept of transparency, right? Like we we want you to understand the vision and how you're impacted, but I'm not gonna make a strategic decision that's gonna happen in a closed room dark that I'm not gonna want to talk to you about, right? So what is it long run? Let's align on the vision, let's share the strategy. And if you're aligned with that top performer, it's going to it's gonna become evident. But if you start getting disingenuous and you start misrepresenting your brand or misrepresenting or waffling on your strategy to try to cater to this top performer, they're gonna read right through it. Again, these people, if they're top performers in sales, like uh we we know all the cliches, like they've seen it all. You can't BS a BSer at that point in time. So you you have to be very direct and honest. And and then secondarily, freedom. Um, and and and this is this is a small runner-up. I would say, like, one A, be super transparent about who you are, why you need them, and and why you think you're a good partner to them, um, and how you can meet their needs. But number two is is allow them the freedom to do their jobs. They were good before they met you. That's why you're talking to them, right? So, so you need to trust that they're gonna be good for you too. And you don't want to smother this fire, you don't, you don't want to create a place where they're depleted. So you really need to make sure you understand what is the infrastructure, what is the ecosystem of support that you as a top producer need. Are you used to having a personal assistant? Are you used to everything being automated? Schedules, these these people like to know that they have the freedom to operate in the way that allows them to be a top performer. And and as a leader, that can be tough because it may go against your model, it may go against anything that you're used to. Um, but you've you've got to be flexible. And the challenge here is you can't create 15 unicorn deals with 15 separate people. You still have to, you still have to have some semblance of structure, fairness, and equitable opportunity. So you give people the opportunity and the upside. And and that's the third piece. You you gotta be willing to share your coin. If if if you're not gonna pay the treasure for the value that they create, why would they come for you? So, so don't be afraid. You you get what you pay for, you know. Um, and good things are never cheap. So I think you have to go into this mindset that we can be a good partnership. I know how to nurture a top performer. I can allow you the environment you need, the creativity that you need. But let's be very clear, we're gonna hold each other accountable. And that's where I think this concept of like performance coaching versus performance management is very important. So, like on day one, we need to have an understanding that you have a 90-day expectation and we're gonna check in and then we're gonna reset the next 90 days of an expectation. We're gonna check in. I'm not gonna micromanage you, but you made a promise to me, you're gonna deliver the goods. I made a promise to you, I'm gonna give you this environment, and I'm gonna share the profit with you. And and together, we're going to coach each other. You're not giving me what I need, I'm not getting enough out of you. So it's like this ongoing therapy session. And and I think top talent needs that. They need to be heard, they need to have an ongoing dialogue, they need to have a place where they can voice their opinion, they need to have a framework where they don't feel that they're being, you know, just set and forget or ignored. So organizationally, you gotta have people, and I use this as a recruiting tool. Like, talk to everybody in my company, talk to whoever you want. Don't just take my like spin on this. Talk to my CFO, talk to my business unit leaders, talk to my head of banking, right? Talk to my head of recruiting, see if see if you get any variation, because what you should find is consistency, and that's where most companies lose the talent. When that happens, they get five different conversations about what the vision is, what the opportunity is like, what the support system is like. Ooh, that sounds like you're not on the same page. I'm not, I'm not coming there, right? And that's that's the closing move is is once once they can hear that that vision that you share from the top down is consistent, like I think it goes a long way. And and the last thing that I'll say when it comes to recruiting top talent, even at Solomon Edwards to this day, every manager is a recruiter, right? Like, like we don't have an internal talent acquisition team that just sources candidates. If if I want to hire somebody, I post the job. I screen the candidates, I hire. If my CFO wants to hire somebody, he posts the job. Like you need to own that because wasting that time with trying to collaborate and calibrate expectations with HR, you take your candidate pool through too many interview steps, it takes too long to communicate with them. So by you as the the end all be all manager of the role, when you're the first person the candidate speaks to, they're getting access direct to the person that they want to ask the questions to. So that first initial screening call, it sets the tempo of the entire organization. Oh my God, I've got accessibility to the person. They're being very transparent about this role. You're telling me exactly what I need to know. This thing moves quickly. Okay, great. I'm bought in. As opposed to the, hey, let's walk through your resume. I see you have this experience. Okay. All right, we're gonna set up another phone call with so-and-so. And and it's just it's it's the old way. We we just need to move forward.

Speaker 2 16:53

Yeah, I agree with that, John. I think that the way that we conduct business has changed. It has evolved. The way that we interview, the way that we hire and attract talent also has changed. And, you know, kind of tying that to the transparency that you were talking about as a cohesive team, be bringing that transparency to the recruiting process and having very like honest conversations with that recruit, I think is so valuable. Julie and I actually had the pleasure of speaking with a leader just yesterday on a podcast. And this individual told us, yeah, I was really interested in this position because you know, we have some conversations like we did with you a little bit offline and just kind of getting to know a little bit of background. And the individual told us, like, yeah, I checked out the company, thought it was what I wanted to pursue, started digging around and looked at actually some of their content that they were putting out on LinkedIn, including some interviews and things like that. And the individual was like, heck no, ran the other direction. So, to your point, if your message from the leadership is not cohesive, you're not on the same page, communication is really loose and it's not the same message, you're going to find really good talent that's gonna run the other direction. And yesterday was a great example of that. Um, before we switch gears, I want to talk about just one last piece on the uh attracting talent. You talked with us a bit offline, John, about how you really kind of see talent as this way to kind of build the right team and looking for the right kind of talents that each individual might represent. And and when I think about that, I kind of think about this language of architecture where you're kind of the builder, you're you're the visionary, you're looking at the strengths and different things that people can bring to the to solve together as a team. If you're looking to fill whether it be sales or whatever team, what are some key pieces of that puzzle to help build a really strong team? Yes, high performance, you know, self-motivated, but what are some other things aside from some of the pieces you talked about to get that really strong team together?

Speaker 19:01

Humility is a big, is a big intangible. Um humility is a good indicator as to whether or not you're gonna be coachable. And and and most most people will tell you that they're coachable. Most people are not coachable, most people do not like feedback, it pisses them off, they take it sideways, they say, Oh, feedback is a gift. Very few people genuinely believe that, right? But um you need feedback for growth and and and there's no growth when you're comfortable and there's no comfort in growth, right? I don't know who said that. I I I see that and I hear that often, and that's just the reality. So people that are a little bit humil, uh have that high humility level, and then people that you know have endurance. And and what I mean by endurance is it's it's emotional endurance, it's it's it's the ability to recover, um, it's the ability to process. So I ask people a lot, you know, tell tell me about one of the times you suffered in your life, you know, like what was it? It's not a fun interview question, but you're looking, you're looking for people that you know recognize that it was a hard time, were able to rebuild afterwards, were able to pick up the pieces, right? We're able to be reflective. There's a lot of that that comes out in that story. And when you have that ability to reflect, you you can you can evolve, right? Because you can say, oh man, look at what happened. I could have done this a little bit better. Um, I'm humble enough to take the feedback. And I have I have found that that starts with with me, you know, like I've got to be humble, I've got to say I don't know, I've got to say I made a mistake, I've got to say I'm not perfect, right? And that just echoes down. But I weary away from the perfectionist, I weary away from you know, the I've got to get a you know, a hundred out of a hundred. Um, I I look for people that have more of an action for bias um and and not overanalyze the situation. Let's let's do something, let's let's go test something. And and I think those make really good team dynamics. Um, but yeah, it's a it's the architecture of the reference is really good because you want to get from point A to point B, and many times there's an obstacle. So you've got to build that bridge from where your company is today to where your company is gonna be tomorrow. And in a bridge, a lot of the a lot of the rocks, a lot of the bricks look the same, but there's a handful of keystones that you have got to have there in order to make sure that all those rocks just don't crumble into the earth. And and that's where as a leader, I think that's where you need to put all your attention on is do my keystones have the right humility, coachability, and transparency? Are they are they my culture bearers? Because as long as my keystones are there, we can we can make we can make do with everything else.

Leading Change Without Burnout

Speaker 1 21:36

Yeah, I like the culture bearer um reference because I actually remember a company, a Fortune 500 company that I worked for. And I remember going um being in the training room, I think for like six weeks or something, thinking like we none of us know what we're doing, how is this gonna be. But when they put us on teams, I realized because a team has such a strong culture, it was so easy to adapt. Um, it was and I noticed based off of other people that I was in training with, we had an easier time adapting. And it was because the culture was there and we just kind of rolled with a healthy culture. And I think if your keystones are there and they are pushing that culture, it's um and people want a healthy culture. They want to come in and be a part of something healthy. And I found it very easy. Um, but then you know, I got promoted and changed and things just shift and I I'll just I'll just channel into this. But um I got transferred to a change management um project that we were doing, John. And I I do have a question for you with all that is happening economically right now, with what's happening with AI, the transformation technology moving at the pace it is. Companies are on seeing budget cuts, I'm seeing layoffs, we're seeing all kinds of things, and companies are still trying to push the change management aspect of what's happening. How do you do that in a healthy way? How do you get the vision of the change management into your people so you're not losing them, they're not in fear, they're not in anxiety, we're still in productivity. What does that look like? Because um I've seen it done very well and I've seen it done not so well. And I've seen companies really have like just high, high percentages of attrition because I think maybe the vision of the change management wasn't clear. I'm not really sure what's happened, but I've seen like mass exoduses out of companies before. So talk to me a little about how doing how do we do change management well? How what is a company coming up against when this is happening?

AI Use Cases And Adoption

Speaker 23:34

Yeah. Um change management I learned a long time ago was really about getting two parts of your body bought in on this. And and and one is your mind and one is your heart, right? So if your brain is gonna be bought in as to why I'm gonna make this change, that's where the logic has to has to like apply, right? Like, okay, we're doing this. Why? It's gonna make my job better, it's gonna replace this process. Um, and and you might be able to understand that. You also might be able to know, am I capable of making this change, which is a fear for many employees right now. Am I gonna be able to upskill to leverage this new way of working with AI and other tools? If their brain doesn't see how they can do it, it puts fear in their heart, which doesn't not make you want to adopt something. So I don't think I'm gonna be good at it. I don't know why I have to do it, and I'm reluctant to change. Oh, I know this makes sense. I am confident you're gonna be able to teach me how to do it. Okay, let's go do this, right? Like we've got a plan. So effective change management has got to lay out a roadmap, it's got to lay out the strategic vision, the why of to why are we making this change? Um, and then it's got to show in a very kind of formulaic way how we're gonna train you and how we're gonna coach you there, and how we're gonna be successful in that new environment so we can eliminate a lot of the doubt. And change like much is the unknown. That's what drives fear in organizations. Why are we doing this? How are we gonna get it done? Who's gonna train us? When when there's more questions than answers, the the change culture starts to change. Um, I think to be successful, besides the planning, the organization, you really have to have your finger on the pulse of kind of the fatigue factor of what's going on with your organization. And I'm that's for me, probably my number one area of like opportunity. So I like to go. I'm a pusher, I'm a catalyst, I'm a driver. Like, I want to go, I've got an engine, and I have a big expectation because I know what my team is capable of. Sometimes it's like that coach who knows what you're capable of, but you don't know yet. Like, I know we can get to that next year, but we we got to push through. Then there's that, okay, we've reached our wall. We can't push anymore. I keep pushing, I'm gonna drive my people away. So that's something where you've got to give break in between transformation, and that's a big opportunity where I'm seeing right now. This is where you hear terms like, oh, I'm burnt out, right? Or oh man, just constant project, no break, no weary. Um, or I'm spending all my time working on my projects, I can't invest in myself, my work-life balance is going. So you've got to really watch that. And in order to do that, you you need you need canaries in the coal mine. You need to listen to a lot of people. You can't just trust your singular power view of the company. You really need a feedback loop that comes back in. And and I think as a leader, good change managers um have trusted people that will give them honest feedback. And and I think that's going back to the humility piece. Like, if you're gonna be good at change management, you're gonna you're probably gonna make some rollouts wrong. You're probably gonna make some mistakes in training and L and D. And you know what? Own it, change it, fix it. And then people are confident that that if something goes wrong, it's okay. They're gonna hear my feedback, we're gonna adapt, we're gonna overcome. So um, yeah, change change management right now. I think a lot of C-suite representatives are underestimating um how hard it is to get a large group of people to buy in on an unknown. So we did three AI implementations custom here at SEG. And I think the cool thing about why all of them were successful were we had a very clear definition of what we wanted to be successful. Like, like we're gonna define success as one was creating an internal agent so we could have our employees ask questions and it sunk in with their policy benefits, and we kept everything safe and PII, respected, and confidential. But the agent was able to look them up across the files and know where they worked, what state they were in, what laws applied to them, what benefit plan they selected. And literally on your cell phone, if you were at the doctor's office, you you could ask it, hey, what's my deductible about to be? And it'll kick that out for you, right? We've worked on sales automation proposals and we've worked on other things internally to accelerate our ability to like match consultants to upcoming projects. But all of those things had a predefined use case as to why and how it was going to help the people. The teams kind of voted on priority in terms of what they wanted to go after and pursue. So when they're a part of that decision-making process and a part of that prioritization process, you get more buy-in from day one. Um, and I think that's the other, the other piece of this is don't make change in a vacuum. You know, bring in a lot of people under the tent, hear them, get the feedback, get the loot. Um, it's gonna help you when you need to go firefight later. You're you're gonna have more receptive people to help you.

Speaker 2 28:31

That's so good. I feel like I have seen and heard of many leaders where they they kind of fail to have that transparency on the front end for those changes that are coming. So it it does create some anxiety. It creates fear for the team. And all that really does is that it extends the period of time that that change is actually going to take to implement. It just delays the entire process. Um, you said something that I took note of, the fatigue factor. Yeah. I think it's so good because if you are not checking your polls as a leader and understanding if you're actually bringing about more fatigue on your team than they can, then they have capacity for and you're you're not clear on that, again, I think it's going to cause more damage in the rollout of those changes that are needed. And so I love the fact that you pointed out having good counsel, um, having a good network, uh, those that are coming in and implementing those changes, make sure you're bring you're you're weighing those decisions and the timelines of it. Because as I'm sitting here, John, I'm going, okay, what does a timeline look like? Well, of course, it's gonna, there's lots of variables here. And so I think as a great leader, you have to consider what those variables look like in order to roll out a successful change.

Speaker 29:50

Yeah, and and and the resources are always your your people, your bandwidth, and your time, right? And then money, of course, money's always a a resource, but that bandwidth is challenging and You know, again, I think um uh you be aware, like don't get feedback from the group doing the change, get feedback from a user downstream. Is it actually helping you? Did this do what it wanted to happen? There's there's a book, I think it's called Sprint, um, and it talks about, you know, just the willingness to fail quickly. And and I think that's a big part, you know. Um in several roles ago, there was an acronym GSD, you know, I don't know if we can cursing this podcast of get stuff done. Um, and that has followed me my whole life. Like I want to get stuff done, right? Now, if we just overthink an engineer's solution, we don't get anything done. We're just in strategic planning meetings all day. I am so much of the school of thought, like, look, you got a good idea, let's go test this thing. And if it and if it works and it shows merit, let's invest a little bit more and then a little bit more, and then eventually it's either our solution or it's not. Um, but let's let's try something and fail really quick at it and learn everything we can from it. And if as long as we're not failing and we're showing you know return on that investment thesis as to why we started it in the first place, let's let's just keep going. And that's where I think as a leader to drive really going back to giving top performers, top talent, freedom. Hey, what's your idea, Julie? Cool, how much money do you need? Yep. Okay, you got seven days. Come back. What what can you learn, right? Like that empowers your people not only to go the extra mile, they they they they want to win. They feel they feel in like bought into it, their skin in the game now. So the engagement factor of this is my job to no, no, no, no, no, this is my idea, changes everything. It changes everything in the output.

Speaker 2 31:40

That's so good. I think what would you say, John, to maybe leaders that maybe they don't have the same approach, maybe they don't have that that same that same thought process, but want to give their their team more autonomy to be able to bring those ideas forward and maybe to get behind them. What would you say to a leader that um you know wants to wants to push themselves as a leader to be able to build that as an opportunity for their team? What are some things that they should consider as an individual?

Empowerment Through Small Wins

Speaker 32:12

Yeah, I mean, start small, right? Don't give them anything critical, right? That's gonna, that's gonna create a negative outcome if they fail, right? I think, I think you have to create an environment where failure is okay. So start with something small, give them, give them a project. And and you can source a project from a million different places, your NPS scores. Go find a negative NPS score and go, go, go, go address that, right? Maybe there's a workflow or whatever, right? Go find something. Okay, well, what would your approach be? All right. Now give them a little bit of constraint. Hey, we've got a couple of weeks, use your extra time and let's check in, right? Look for progress, look for updates. That's gonna give the leader an opportunity to get a part of the dialogue, to help coach, provide some insights. You're gonna see how hard this person's pushing or not. But good, bad, or indifferent, you've given them an opportunity. And if they win, great, you solved the problem. Yeah, you you have you have a you have a win, and now you're gonna build confidence, trust, and momentum. Now you're gonna take on a secondary problem or a tertiary or a bigger problem, right? Maybe it's an enterprise problem. Maybe, hey, why don't you go find a problem that hits two departments and let's go tackle that department, right? But if you start small, you build trust, you build credibility. But winning is so contagious and it's addictive. Once you get that first win, you want that second win, and you talk about engagement level. Once you bring home two, three wins, you don't want to bring home a dud. So, like, so again, the just the enthusiasm and the effort that comes through, start really small, make it inconsequential, don't keep it tied to like a financial outcome that could get people in trouble, make it operational, um, and and find things that are emotional value ads. Um, and I think that's huge because not every change can be a cost reduction, not every change can be an amazing financial event for an organization, but you can create different moments of emotion throughout your customer journey or through your client journey. You can make a process easier. You you could you could you could just improve a little bit. Um, and when you start celebrating that and you do it one at a time, those things kind of like catch wildfire. Like one department will hear, another department will hear, a senior leader will be in a meeting and go, You hear what Taryn did the other day in marketing? She got she got so-and-so to do this. Why aren't you doing that? Right. And all of a sudden it it just catches on. So the last piece of advice and the biggest piece of advice is like just just do it. Like, stop waiting for it. Just just try it. Find something small that's not going to kill your career, but give them a chance.

Speaker 1 34:46

Yeah, I think fear and control are two things that um hinder. We've seen a lot of leaders. Um, I'm too afraid. This happened in the past. I've tried it once, um, I've tried it twice. And so we've heard those conversations of um, even when talking to company leads, Tan and I, it's like, well, why can't you do this? Well, this is how everyone's doing it. So we'll we'll just stay the course this way. So I think, I mean, John, I think you nailed it on the head. And I think we're seeing stagnation in those companies. Those companies are coming to a place where they can't move forward. Um, and then, you know, year after year of being kind of stagnant, um, you're losing, you're losing talent. You're gonna lose talent because people are not gonna stay. So great challenge. Yeah, great challenge to uh leadership. Uh let me ask you one more thing. So this journey you've been on as you're learning to like build teams and all the perspectives that you've uh what's been the most um life-changing as far as your career is concerned? What is is there any piece of advice or some nuggets that you've learned along the way that you're like, this is gonna change my perspective completely to change the outcomes of what my career is gonna look like? Is there anything that stands out to you, or is there a person that's ever said anything to you that's kind of changed that perspective for you?

Two Career Lessons For Leaders

Speaker 36:04

I think two things. Um, the old adage that took me forever to adopt is just hire people that are smarter than you and don't be afraid of it. Hire people that are better than you and don't be afraid of it. That that's that fear of loss of control, or that's that fear of you're gonna be passed up. But if you want top talent, like like go get it. And and I I was afraid of that in the beginning part of my career. I wouldn't, I wouldn't want people that might be able to edge me out. My ego got in the way and and it and it and it hurt me. Um maybe I hired the second best candidate instead of the first best, right? So you've got it, you've gotta let that go. Surround yourself with really gifted people. Iron sharpens iron, and you're you're gonna get a better. Um the the second piece is um you as the ultimate leader, as the CEO or the leader of your team or your business unit, it is your job to be what your team is missing. And and I'll I'll you know that's that's the most important thing. It is your job to fill in the gaps. You are not going to be able to be the same and and your team around you change. As your team changes, the demands from you are gonna change. Maybe, maybe they need you to be a driver, maybe they need you to be um behind the scenes and be a support person. Maybe they need you for strategy, maybe they need you for emotional support, maybe, maybe they need you um to get the hell out of the way and let them develop, right? But your your ability to grow your team is gonna be your ability to recognize what it's missing. Communication, structure, accountability, enthusiasm, like those are the things that it's not about technically what you're short as a leader. You're always gonna be short something. There's always somebody smarter than you in some capacity. But I think what makes me uh an impactful leader, and I try to be a good leader, is I am willing to do whatever my team needs me to do in that moment to be successful. If that's be the janitor, I'm off the floors with a smile on my face, right? If that's calm the chaos and address the union and plant the course and chart the vision, great. If it's go deliver board bad news, hopefully good news, great, right? But it's my job as the as the team leader, as the captain to read the room, understand that people are human, personalities change, stress triggers people, and and pressure ultimately, you know, can sometimes bring out the best or the worst in people. And it's your job as a leader to add whatever ingredient is missing to reset the temperature of the room, bring it, bring it back to that place of calm, get your team focused again, rally them up and and and go. So I I've seen too many really capable leaders not flex on who they are and demand that other people kind of flex to them. That's I think that's a harder model.

Speaker 1 38:46

Yeah, I think you've so many I think you've said a lot of good things. Um, and I think what we're seeing is um I think people are disconnected from reading the room. They're disconnected from their teens or disconnected. Um, I think they have a vision, but I think sometimes the people are disconnected from the vision. And so we do see that. But John, thank you so much for joining us. We totally appreciate you just carving out some time and just giving us some wisdom and insight into like how you've come this far and just all that you've um just learned and the perspectives of it. We have a lot of young leaders watching, and we hope that they get to gather from this. So thank you so much.

Closing Thanks

Speaker 39:25

No, I appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Thank you, Julie. Thank you, Taryn. It's been a great conversation.